Notes from a think tank

Even karmi women realize the evil of feminism

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4.3 Even karmi women realize the evil of feminism.

Letter COM:1698467 (25 lines)

From: Krishna Kirti (das) HDG (Baltimore - USA)
Date: 18-Sep-98 22:59
To: ISKCON India (news & discussion) [326]
To: Madhusudani Radha (dd) JPS (Mill Valley - USA) [13774]
Reference: Text COM:1697796 by Madhusudani Radha (dd) JPS Comment: Text COM:1698632 by Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN)
Comment: Text COM:1701462 by Madhusudani Radha (dd) JPS
Subject: Washington Post, Wednesday, 16 Sept., 1998
> Why did you send this smut to me?

It doesn’t seem you read the article in its entirety to appreciate it. Let me quote the essential portion (the end), for which the “smut” you were offended by was supportive evidence:

> (4) It is common for Clinton supporters to say his policies have been the
> inverse of his personal degeneracy. Thing again. Look at where feminism-
> -certainly a key Clinton policy--has left the women around him.
[. . .]
> One aspect of the Clinton mess is the light it throws on what feminism has
> done to our culture--provide ample sport for male satyrs and dishonor for
> the women around them.
> [End]

The whole point being made by this journalist (who also happens to be a

lady) is that feminism has had the reverse effect of what feminism’s
purveyors intended: it has ruined the lives of so many women. That even the karmis are now becoming aware of this is a very good thing.

I posted this originally to the ISKCON India (news & discussion) forum,

which is a private conference. Are you a member of this conference?
(Text COM:1698467) -----------------------------------------

4.4 Anyone misbehaving with women is dealt with heavy hand and offenders were publicly punished to create proper etiquette.

Letter COM:1704158 (77 lines)

From: Dayaram (das) JPS (Mayapur - IN)
Date: 20-Sep-98 10:23
To: Rasananda Swami (USA) [2773] (received: 20-Sep-98 12:59)
To: Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN) [5814]
To: Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP [4758]
Cc: Bhakti Vikasa Swami [8403]
Cc: Jasomatinandan (das) ACBSP (Gujarat - IN) [1179] (received:***
Cc: Jivan Mukta (das) TSI (Back to Basics) (Ontario - CAN) [181]
Cc: Krishna Kirti (das) HDG (Baltimore - USA) [566] (received: 20-Sep-98
Reference: Text COM:1698628 by Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN)
Subject: Women only at home? My comments to you all
> > The girl was apparently frustrated with the loving exchange with her
> > mother and was crying, but the mother did not care much. Why? She was > > a big manager and busy talking with two sannyasis. The mother was
> > actually angry with her daughter because she could not talk in a peacefull > > way with us.
> Good point. It doesn’t seem like a big thing, but it IS true. Women ought to > do their duties & let the men do theirs.
> There is a lot of contamination about this among the “big leaders” in our
> movement. Due to their “Western” cultural background & lack of depth of
> understanding of the traditional culture of India, which Srila Prabhupada
> wanted devotees to see firsthand & imbibe.
> On the contrary there is some kind of “despise India” mood that many
> Westerners love to keep. In a suble psychological way. Maybe it’s some
> kind of inferiority complex? I can’t say for sure, but it’s unfortunate that
> due to that they don’t understand so much that is for their subjective
> benefit and for the objective benefit of the ISKCON institution. Bhakti Vikas
> Maharaj mentioned the name of one prominent GBC/sannyasi in this
> regard.
> There are MANY. It would be best to keep this philosophical, but it must
> be stern & the efforts to see it adopted must go “all out.” There will have to > be a lot of lobbying at Mayapur.
> Dayaram Prabhu will also get involved in this too.
> dasabhas,
> Basu Ghosh Das

I am also in full agreement with the proper cultural behaviour in ISKOCN.

Women must be respected and protected but not allowed to act like men. But
some leaders appear to miss the point and some of them are outright afraid
to speak as it makes them look bad(?) and against the current fashion and
what not?

After this year’s GBC meeting there was istagoshti and the announcement of

the first woman GBC candidate for GBC was made and many were in ecstasy and then some one suggested what about women leading kirtan etc. and the then chairman said why not start from tomorrow. Who will lead the mangala arotika tomorrow and 2-3 matajis came forward to volunteer. I couldn’t belive this and thought oh! Krsna! in Mayapura ladies are going to lead and sannyasis are going to follow. What message it will send?

Anyway I approached the chairman and questioned him ‘how can you do such a thing without consulting local authorities.” And requested ladies not to do it after chairman agreed that our stand is correct.

But I am not sure what will happen this year. Whether GBC will pass such a
resolution to that effect then we will be helpless.

In the meantime I was painted as villain by many Matajis and I think also on some web pages. And the propaganda is so heavy that I find myself thinking twice and discussing with some others before telling any woman about any improper behaviour i.e. improper dancing in the temple during sandhya arotka, which otherwise I wouldn’t think tiwce before correcting. We need lot of voices of leaders oppsoing this trend. At the same time be careful not to create feeling among newer devotees that all women are off or still worst GBC body is useless.

So, although we didn’t allow women to lead kirtan in the temple, anyone
misbehaving with women is dealt with heavy hand and offenders were publicly punished to create proper etiquett.

I have feeling that all those who have understanding on this issue should

speak up and not keep quite else we will have many uncultured practices
pushed into our movement.

Hare Krsna.


PS My heartfelt thanks to all of you for bringing this important topic up.

PS I didn’t get previous texts. Basu Ghosh Prabhu could you send them to me
(Text COM:1704158) -----------------------------------------

4.5 Men have responsibility to women.
Letter COM:1730055 (51 lines)
From: Dayaram (das) JPS (Mayapur - IN)
Date: 29-Sep-98 13:45
To: Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN) [6342] (received: 30-Sep-98
To: Hari Sauri (das) ACBSP [10879] (received: 30-Sep-98 00:23)
To: Sita dd (sent: 29-Sep-98 13:51)
Cc: GHQ [17] (sender: Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN))
Cc: Bhakti Vikasa Swami [8727] (received: 30-Sep-98 07:51)
Cc: Rasananda Swami (USA) [2911] (received: 29-Sep-98 20:04)
Cc: Jasomatinandan (das) ACBSP (Gujarat - IN) [1222] (received:29-Sep
Cc: Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP [5200]
Cc: Krishna Kirti (das) HDG (Baltimore - USA) [780] (received: 29-Sep-98
Reference: Text COM:1708389 by Hari Sauri (das) ACBSP
Subject: Proposal for the 1999 GBC meetings in Mayapura
> >
> > P.S. Hari Sauri & Dayaram Prabhus; what do you think?
> I am personally swamped with e-mail and I can’t handle anymore no
> matter what the topic. In general I support the initiative because whatever > we do has to be based on Srila Prabhupada’s books and the more extreme
> people pushing for change want to do it on the basis that Srila
> Prabhupada’s words were for a limited time and circumstance. However I
> don’t have the confidence that they have the spiritual intelligence to
> understand what was a principle and what was time place and
> circumstance application.
> There is too much bodily consciousness in our society from both sides --
> men and women -- and this is the root cause of the problems. Bad
> treatment from men cannot be counterbalanced by artificial legislative
> means such as “equal representation” in management for women etc. This
> will simply reduce our society down to a material political organization
> with no potency left for preaching.

Just as Husband as Swami has authority over wife(woman) he also has

responsibility towards her. Men can’t have only authority and no
responsibility. In Mayapura to the extent possible we tried to make sure that
along with strict behavioral standards for the ladies they are not ill treated or dishonored eg. when we found that some man made made lewd calls to some ladies we track the guy down and then gave him good punishment and he had to fall at the feet of the ladies whom he offended and beg forgiveness. And many ladies appreciate that. Although some ladies have made it a point to flog Mayapura on the internet or publicly many resident
ladies support us.

So, we along with pushing the right standard for GBC in our own temples and

personal behaviour act with such a responsibility and I am sure many ladies
will start seeing this and supporting it and then implementation will be easy. Else we can still go ahead with our program and presentation but many
ladies will unfortunately see it as male chauvinism.

>This will simply reduce our society down to a material political organization

>with no potency left for preaching.

Unfortunately this is the way it is going.

> So go ahead but please don’t expect any input from me right now.

> Your humble servant,

> Hari-sauri dasa

I also whole heatedly support the initiative but very busy with Mayapur

floods and many other things. I may not be able to contribute much but
definitely encourage devotees like Vidvan Gauranga and others to do the
required research etc.

Hare Krsna.


4.6 Protection of woman by responsible male
Text COM:1738353 (30 lines)
From: Shyamasundara ACBSP
Date: 02-Oct-98 06:12
Subject: women & management
---------- Forwarded Message ----------

Letter COM:1698466 (22 lines)

From: Krishna Kirti (das) HDG (Baltimore - USA)
Subject: women & management
> > > What do you all think?
> > >
> > I think that it must be accompanied by some genuine, substantial offer
> > of protection from the “male community.” There are so many women in
> > our movement who have had husbands that have renounced them, for
> > mostly sinful purposes, and then those same men have been tolerated and
> > embraced by our institution. Meanwhile, no one gives a thought for the
> > “stalwart” Prabhu’s suffering former family. ys KKd
> My view is that we should not go astray with many different points. We
> have a goal which is to present to GBC a reasonable paper pointing out the
> mistake in giving so much freedom to women in our society such as women
> GBC and on. RS

That is alright. We are coming up with a paper which points out the mistake

of giving unrestricted freedom to women. A woman’s dharma is to be under
the protection of a male at all phases of her life. The solution we are
proposing, therefore, must also address the issue of who will assume
responsibility for their protection and what happens if that contract is
violated by either her protector or by the woman herself. It is an essential point. ys KKd
(Text COM:1698466) -----------------------------------------

4.7 What “Ardhabuddhi Dasa” omitted from Jaya Tirtha Charan Dasa’s text on protecting women.
Text COM:1738427 (164 lines) [W1]
From: Shyamasundara ACBSP
Date: 02-Oct-98 08:15
Subject: Re: Feminists
---------- Forwarded Message ----------

Letter COM:1731323 (146 lines) [W1]

From: Jaya Tirtha Charan (das) JPS
Date: 29-Sep-98 22:07
To: Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP [5209]
Reference: Text COM:1731197 by Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP
Comment: Text COM:1737208 by Shyamasundara ACBSP
Subject: Re: Feminists
Haribol Shyama’ prabhu,


Thank you very much for that, it certainly is what I would call needed.

>Dear Jayatirtha Caran Dasa,

>Please accept my best wishes. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
>No need to be a mouse anymore. The reason I asked you about your stand >on feminism is that finally a backlash against feminism is starting in >ISKCON.


>We have started an action committee, and are gaining support in four areas:
>GBC’s, sannyasis, temple presidents, and women.

I’m of the opinion that any woman who is TRULY a feminist (prakrti and not

a mini purusha) will be reasonable toward our views. In my experience most
of them are the one’s who have some kind of “background” in abuse - be it
by a father, uncle, boyfriend or husband, non of which we would support
anyway. the unfortunate thing is that then they seem to take it as their life’s mission to either give any male of the species a flaming hard time to make some kind of karmic payback towards us, or think that their rejection of any kind of “protection” (thinking themselves equal or in many cases superior) has turned their innocence and shyness into a form of hard heartedness that often is symptomised by abuse victims/rape victims/etc.

Obviously I respect their (women’s) vulnerability, and understanding their emotional standing view that their being misled by these “Feminazis” will if it is not dealt with destroy the infrastructure of what is left of our society.

Bhagavad Gita clearly states that where women are not protected that
ruination of society follows. I think we’ve all seen that, especially of the sixties and seventies (alright the eighties and nineties too). The amazing this is that according to shastras like the Grhya Sutras the position of women is clearly stated according to their functionary attributes.

It’s a well known fact that every month they become completely irrational, unapproachable, emotional, abusive, vindictive, etc., etc., as the PMS

monster raises its ugly head. The best thing for them to do is to go into
retreat and leave the rest of society to get on with developing the
preaching, etc. Otherwise, we’ve experienced this at home due to the tired,
emotional state of affairs that they have, there are constant misunderstandings, clashes, and a mood of total disharmony takes over. In
New Zealand the non-devotees have a saying “that when mum’s not happy, no one is happy!!!” We have a policy at home that to avoid this kind of social
disruption my wife and eldest daughter makes themselves scarce - they rest
and read. My son and I cook and run the house at this time. Mum has a
holiday - she likes that too!

I feel very fortunate in one respect that my wife has some nice association

with women who are happily married, who have good status as being known as intelligent devotees, and are respected because of that, and therefore don’t need to have to stuff it up your nose all the time how wonderful they

Yes, that’s what I believe the root of the entire matter is: just as with children who join gangs to show their unity, identity, and superiority (mostly coming from dysfunctional backgrounds); and indigenous peoples the world over who have also been exploited by colonialists; or the Puranjans’ of this world - these people all have axes to grind. There often is truth behind what they say to some degree, under certain circumstances but they just have the tendency of going over board.

>May I suggest that you become a member of the Dharma of Women forum
>which is hosted by Mother Sita and is very antifeminist. This will give you a >lot of ammunition and help raise your confidence on the matter. Many >devotees felt isolated regarding their views on feminism thinking they >were alone on the >matter, but actually most devotees are antifeminist, >even the women. So join that >forum and get some inspiration.

Yes I’ll get right onto that.

>Aside from that we could use your help in putting together and organizing a
>presentation for the GBC. You have research and writing ability which could
>be useful in our cause. In any case you may be able to help in some way. >We need some dedicated persons to help. Let me know if you’re interested >in helping with a counter offensive against the feminists. We would like to
>have something put together by December so that the GBC has time to look >it over before the Mayapura meetings. Do you have Folio?

No unfortunately my Folio is not working. But let me see, as I do want to get it again.

>At this time keep this information under your hat, we don’t want to let the >cat out of the bag.

MUM’s the word!!!

>However, it would be good if you contacted other devotees of similar views
>and network with them so that when we are ready to move we will already
>have distribution channels in place for disturbing the information. The part
>that you should keep to yourself is that there is a special subcommittee >working on it.

Yes, I know a number of devotees who have been praying like me for

something like this to come about. None I may add are chauvinists by that
definition, but just devotees who are sick and tired of being counter-exploited.

>I am assuming that you will be eager to join this task of fumigating ISKCON

>and getting rid of this pestilence. Therefore I have attached to this letter
>a copy of the Manusamhita for research purposes.

Prabhu, there were no attachments with this message. For some reason COM

does that a lot to my mail. If you would be kind enough to send it again I
would appreciate that.

>Yours in the service of Srila Prabhupada

>Shyamasundara Dasa

I have some really horrendous articles in some of my University study books

pro-cases for feminazis - I had some real good run-ins with those blokes
(mostly a bunch of dykes......!) I personally think that that’s where most of this is coming many women of today have been influenced by the radical outspoken professors, and students in mundane academia, and have carried those misconceptions based on, as I mentioned either dysfunctional “bad experience”, sensual preferences, or lack of spiritual knowledge and practical application of it, and brought it with them as “Knowledge -or-science” - whereas really it is the accumulation of nescience.

ys, JTCd.

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