Aa history Lovers 2006 moderators Nancy Olson and Glenn F. Chesnut page

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(hartsell at etex.net)

No CONFERENCE decision that I am aware of,

just as there was little conferring prior to

instigation of the suit.
++++Message 3916. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Circle and Triangle lawsuit

From: ricktompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/3/2006 10:15:00 PM

In April 1993 the General Service Board of

Alcoholics Anonymous decided, from the "sense" of

the General Service Conference (the sense of the

Conference without an approval/disapproval vote),

that all AA trademarks and logos would be


Copyrights would remain in effect for the text

phrases "A.A., Alcoholics Anonymous, the AA

Grapevine, Inc., and Box 4-5-9."
The previous two years saw the discussion and

litigation threats brought to the conclusion

that the Circle and Triangle logo could not

be effectively protected and trademarked for

A.A. or the second "General Service Conference"

logo. There was also discussion and trepidation

that the coin minting companies that refrained

from using the logo, in those two years leading

up to the 1993 Conference, could counter-sue

AAWS, Inc. for loss-of-trade settlements when

AA's litigation (and threat of action) was

dropped. The counter-suits never happened.

The GSB released its decision immediately after

the 1993 Conference in a one-page announcement

that was communicated to all of AA. And of

course, to the public.

The 1993 Conference did approve an Advisory

Action for all 'future' AAWS literature since

4/93, adding the phrase : "This is AA General Service

Conference-approved literature."

An Ad Hoc committee, with Delegates and AA

Trustees, met on the pending litigation and AA's

use of the Circle and Triangle around November

1992 and it released its findings in January

'93 before the Conference.
I haven't read the Ad Hoc committee Report and

have since lost the April 1993 piece, but I made

copies of the announcement for the AA groups

I participated in at the time.

To me, what the Conference decided holds true

to the forward-looking perspective of almost

all its Advisory Actions. Then, and even today,

AA continues to be a self-correcting fellowship

when it appears necessary. Advisory Actions are

undertaken for the present and immediate future

of our Fellowship as solutions, rather than


The voted solution to the logo trademark dilemma

added the 'Conference-approved' text.

Uncomplicated! Hope this answer helps dispel

any gathering myth that GSO (an AAWS, Inc.

entity) made the decision.
Rick T., Illinois


On a side note about circles and triangles,

I read in the NY Times today that the U.S.

Government's 67-year-old Civil Defense logo

(used on survival rations and bomb shelter

entrances), showing the letters "CD" enclosed

in a circle and triangle, will be discontinued

as of January 1, 2007. The new logo has an

"E" for "Emergency" and no circle and

++++Message 3917. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Photo of Rowland Hazard

From: secondles . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/3/2006 4:31:00 PM

Hi Tommy: As you know, I'm a Vermonter too. In

my small town of Arlington (southern part of the

state) folks just referred to the State Hospital

in Brattleboro as "He went to Brattleboro", etc.

There was nothing else in Brattleboro of note,

so people knew what was meant. It was a hospital

for all types of "committed" ailments... not

just alcoholism. It is on the other side of the

Green Mountains from Arlington.
It would be nice if you wrote a post regarding

the Annual meeting of History Lovers in Baton

Rouge. I think we all here on the web would

appreciate that.

Best regards,
Les Cole

Colorado Springs

++++Message 3918. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: The Traditions and Religion

From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/3/2006 11:12:00 PM

I would venture to say that people are not making

specific reference to a religion by saying they are

Catholic or Protestant or Pentacostal or Hasidic or

Conservative or Reform Jews. If you talk to a

practicing member of the Roman Catholic faith (who

swear that they are the one true church) they will

tell you that the Protestants are not doing it right.

The fundamentalists will tell you that theirs is the

true way and that if anyone who does not profess their

savior as Lord will go to hell.

Descendents of the Tribes of Israel are the same. An

Hasidic Jew will look at things differently than a

Reform Jew or Reconstructionist Jew. Even within the

Hasidic sects there are vast differences. Not all Jews

follow the 613 Laws and some will call G-d or God or

HaShem or whatever. Alex, do you also wear a "skull

cap and fringes" at all times or do you do that only

at meetings which what you wrote suggests?

While AA itself is not supposed to be allied with any

sect or denomination, individual members are not

prohibited from expressing their faith. Faith or a

belief in God is what made AA work for so many years.

Reliance on a Higher Power used to be a good thing in

When people talk about Jesus at meetings it does turn

some off but it doesn't violate any Tradition. It also

doesn't mean they are talking about any specific

religion. I would hate to censor anyone's faith or

belief just because someone might not like to hear it.

AA membership is not based upon conformity unless

they's changed that edict for the sake of clarity.

> From: "Alex H"


> From an historical perspective, I think most AA

> members would collapse into a religious coma if

> I began reading from "The Upper Room," "The Akron

> Guide to the Twelve Steps" or made suggestions

> for further reading from the "The Akron Manual."


> Regarding those with no religion, again

> historically speaking, the AA Big Book is rife

> with references to G-d and to the Bible. Hiding

> from it does nothing to assuage the suspicion

> of atheists that something religious might be

> going on.


> And again, historically speaking, AA meetings

> have usually been made up of folks with different

> religions, so when a Baptist, a Catholic and a

> Jew call out their respective religion, we know

> that all religions are welcome. On the other

> hand, throughout AA history we have had the

> stories of nominally religious alcoholics who

> had tried to solve their problem through their

> religion prior to AA and it failed them in some

> way. So mentioning a religion is misleading to

> the newcomer.


> So... I agree with you Natasha, that folks

> should not be calling out their religion, but

> if someone insists calling out that they are

> a Catholic or a Baptist, you can bet your bottom

> dollar that I will shout out good and loud that

> I am an Orthodox Jew. Why? Because if I let

> their statement stand, some Jewish newcomer

> might be sitting in the back and think this was

> a congregation of Christians. I shout out to

> make sure he will understand that all is well.

> I am the "bird in the coal mine."


> BTW, when I attend meetings, I wear a skull cap

> and fringes. I look like the guy from Fiddler on

> the Roof. If that's not shouting out my religion,

> I don't know what is. The same is true with

> Catholic priests who attend meetings in their

> clerical collars [as was done by Ralph Pfau,

> who wrote the fourteen Golden Books under the

> name of Father John Doe in the early AA period,

> during the years 1947 to 1964]. I would never

> deny them the opportunity to wear their collar

> and I would call them by their title certainly.


> Alex H.

++++Message 3919. . . . . . . . . . . . Photo of Dr. Silkworth''s grave

From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/6/2006 2:09:00 PM

Photo taken by Russ Stewart from New Jersey, of Dr.

Silkworth's grave, see http://hindsfoot.org/silky.html

Russ tells us how visited the cemetery in a note

dated December 6, 2006:

I was in Eatontown visiting one of my accounts

yesterday afternoon. The meeting went to about

4:00. Afterward, I headed over to the Glenwood

Cemetery in West Long Branch, New Jersey, to say

thanks to this guy. Although it looks like I

took the picture in the dark of night, there

was actually a glorious sunset happening during

my short visit.

What impresses me the most is the humility

demonstrated by this simple marker. His wife

Antoinette is buried right next to him. She

had passed the year earlier, 1950.

The other thing was trying to imagine how Bill

must have felt standing at this spot in 1951.

A year earlier, Dr. Bob had passed. Two of

Bill's greatest gifts where gone.

"Russ Stewart"

(rstewart at ndindustries.com)

++++Message 3920. . . . . . . . . . . . Ceremony at Town''s Hospital, Noon ,

December 10th... (update)

From: Robt Woodson . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/4/2006 10:31:00 AM
The address (which was omitted in

the first posting)...

The Charles B. Towns Hospital

293 Central Park West

New York, NY
Time and Date (corrected)...
11:59 a.m., or, one minute before Noon on

December 10th.

The Event...
A Candle will be lit in the window of the former

Town's Hospital, outside two lights will be lit

symbolizing Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob...from these

two lights, those of us who have gathered will

light our own, and hopefully return to our lives,

to our homes, and to our groups, with some part

of this light remaining in each of us that we

might each share a bit of what we have recieved.

Town's Hospital is where Bill had his profound

Spiritual experience...that's where his sobriety

began, and, that's where we'll be. I Hope, once

more, that we might see some of you there, or

that you might steer someone our way...the idea,

begun by my friends from Mexico City, is simply

to initiate some kind of annual remembrance of

this moment in our history.

Again with thanks,

Woody in Akron

A vision of a fellowship yet to come (BB p. 14)...
"While I lay in the hospital the thought came

that there were thousands of hopeless alcoholics

who might be glad to have what had been so freely

given me. Perhaps I could help some of them.

They in turn might work with others."
++++Message 3921. . . . . . . . . . . . Copies of early issues of The Upper


From: Jeff Clymer . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/5/2006 6:34:00 PM
I have looked for copies of "The Upper Room" for

a long time. Does any one have an idea where

I might find copies from that time period?
Thanks, Jeff
- - -
The Upper Room is still published in Nashville,

Tennessee. AA members find the Upper Room

Chapel there a deeply moving place to visit,

almost as moving as Dr. Bob's house. See photo

at http://hindsfoot.org/uprm1.html
The problem is finding issues from the second

half of the 1930's, when it was a major influence

on many of the ideas found in the Big Book.
(The synergistic balance between grace and human

responsibility, the emphasis on the religion of

the heart, the insistence that "faith without

works is dead," the atmosphere of tolerance for

all other religions, the belief that conversion

is only the first step in a life which must be

devoted methodically to continual spiritual

growth in a carefully organized spiritual program,

and so on. See http://hindsfoot.org/protlib.html )
Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)
++++Message 3922. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Tommy H. on Big Book changes

("at" vs. "for")

From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/3/2006 10:43:00 PM
Just to throw my 2 cents into the mix....
If one looks at the visual meaning and intent of


letters in the Foreword to the First edition it is

very different than the lower case italics of the same

phrase found in the Foreword to the First Edition in

later editions.

[This is found on page xiii in the fourth edition.]
Clarification in the vernacular of the Big Book

revisers means that what is written doesn't conform

to being all things to all people. It means that

it doesn't conform to not wanting to offend anyone

or scare anyone away. It means that watering down

to "clarify" will continue.

> From: Tom Hickcox

> (cometkazie1 at cox.net)


> There are a number of changes, but the editors

> tell us some changes are made "in the interest of

> clarity." They changed victory in the 3rd Step

> Prayer to transcendence, but that doesn't seem to

> me to add clarity.


> Tommy

++++Message 3923. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "Qualification"

From: edgarc@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/6/2006 4:36:00 AM

From John K. (Charlotte), Edgar C. (Sarasota,

Florida), and Jon N. (southern California).

- - -
From: "johnpublico"

(keller at ociofcharlotte.com)

Thank you all for your great feedback! What

a wonderful quilt of many colors is this thing

we call AA!
John K.


- - -
From: edgarc@aol.com (edgarc at aol.com)
Jim Blair said "in the province of Ontario,

Canada, the chairman at each meeting will

'qualify' himself as an alcoholic by telling

a bit of his story."

That's the way it's done on the West Coast

of Florida.

Edgar C., Sarasota, Florida
- - -
From: Jon Nagle

(jfanagle at yahoo.com)

Here in Southern California the term qualifying

as I have always known it comes into play in a

formal setting, e.g. a "speaker meeting" when

the speaker tells his/her story encompassing

what it was like (qualifying one's alcoholic

behavior), how it was, and then what it is like

now (sober life).
In a more general meeting it seems that we can

have a tendency for some of the newer members to

lapse into drunkalogues and "over-qualify"

if you will. As an earlier member wrote this form

of sharing can, if not guided by the leader of

a meeting, allow a newcomer to think that he/she

is in a group therapy meeting, rather than having

the emphasis put on recovery through the steps

and reliance on a higher power as the path to


++++Message 3924. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Tommy H. on "victory" vs.


From: Chris H. . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/5/2006 6:33:00 PM
My fourth edition of the Big Book says "victory."
Chris H.
- - -
(Big Book p. 63) "Take away my difficulties,

that victory over them may bear witness to

those I would help of Thy Power, Thy Love, and

Thy Way of Life."

(As Bill Sees It p. 210) "Take away my difficulties,

that my transcendence over them may bear witness to

those I would help of Thy Power, Thy Love, and

Thy Way of Life."

(I'm quoting this from the 23rd printing of

As Bill Sees It, which came out in 1989, but

haven't compared it with a 1st printing.)
- - -
Message 3907 from: Tom Hickcox

(cometkazie1 at cox.net)

We had the "at" vs "for" discussion and I have

found where As Bill Sees It changed the wording

of "Deep down . . . . is a fundamental idea of God"

from p. 66.

As Bill Sees It has "idea of a God," which is a

lot different. It's like that in the first printing.

There are a number of changes, but the editors

tell us some changes are made "in the interest of

clarity." They changed victory in the 3rd Step

Prayer to transcendence, but that doesn't seem to

me to add clarity.
++++Message 3925. . . . . . . . . . . . The Little Red Book 17th printing

From: john . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/8/2006 5:32:00 PM

Need date of the 17th printing of

The Little Red Book.

john wikelkius


(nov85 at graceba.net)
++++Message 3926. . . . . . . . . . . . Use of "The Upper Room" in early AA

From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/8/2006 8:15:00 PM

I have collected some passages talking about the

use of "The Upper Room" for morning prayer and

meditation in early AA, which I give below.
Ernie Kurtz is corresponding with the Upper Room

headquarters in Nashville about making either

a printed version or a searchable electronic

version of the 1935-1938 issues available for

AA historians.
They were interested, but wanted some good solid

documentation that this AA tradition (about

early AA people reading The Upper Room) could

be thoroughly corroborated

Are there members of the group who could give us

some other citations from written sources from

the period between 1935 and 1948 of AA people

using "The Upper Room"?

(I am using 1948 as the cut-off date, because

that is when AA member Richmond Walker published

Twenty-Four Hours a Day.)
Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)
- - -
From Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers, the official

A.A. biography of the cofounder of A.A., pages

71-72, 137-139. and 310-311:
"Sue [Dr. Bob's daughter] remembered the quiet

time in the mornings -- how they sat around reading

the Bible. Later, they also used The Upper Room,

a Methodist publication that provided a daily

inspirational message, interdenominational in its

approach. 'Then somebody said a prayer,' she

recalled. 'After that, we were supposed to say one

ourselves. Then we'd be quiet. Finally, everyone

would share what they got, or didn't get. This

lasted for at least a half hour and sometimes went

as long as an hour."'
"As T. Henry described it, a typical meeting in

1938-39 went like this .... 'Usually, the person

who led the Wednesday meeting took something from

The Upper Room [the Methodist periodical mentioned

earlier] or some other literature as a subject.

Sometimes, they selected a theme such as "My

Utmost Effort" or "My Highest Goal." There would

be a quiet time. then different people would

tell something out of their own experience.'"
An A.A. old timer named Dorothy S. M., talking

about the way Dr. Bob worked with newcomers,

mentioned that he would sometimes recommend that

they read Drummond's The Greatest Thing in the

World. "Those were the three main books at that

time: that, The Upper Room, and [Emmet Fox's]

Sermon on the Mount."
A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous (from AA Group

No. 1, Akron, Ohio, 1940, Part VI):

"Now you are out of the hospital .... First

off, your day will have a new pattern. You will

open the day with a quiet period. This will be

explained by your sponsor. You will read the

Upper Room, or whatever you think best for


Mitchell K., How It Worked: The Story of Clarence

H. Snyder and the Early Days of Alcoholics Anonymous

in Cleveland, Ohio, chapters 3.8 and 5.5.
Clarence Snyder told Mitchell that "new people

were told they had to read the Bible .... They

were instructed to do this on a daily basis.

Clarence said that newcomers were also told to

read The Upper Room daily and to read The Sermon

on the Mount by Emmett Fox."

"Clarence believed that in order for a prospective

member to get well, his entire family had to get

well also .... Family members were invited to

attend meetings, were given a copy of the book

Alcoholics Anonymous, and were told to read the

Upper Room."

From A.A. historian Dick B., whose books on A.A.

history include "The Akron Genesis of Alcoholics

Anonymous," "The Oxford Group and Alcoholics

Anonymous: A Design for Living That Works," and

"New Light on Alcoholism: God, Sam Shoemaker,

and A.A." In an article at

http://www.dickb.com/goodmorn.shtml, Dick says:
In the A.A. "spiritual recovery program which

produced such a high success rate in the 1930's

and early 1940's .... the growth part of the

program had a great deal to do with Quiet Time

-- a Quiet Time that included Bible study, prayer,

receiving revelation from God, and the use of

devotional books and periodicals such as The

Upper Room as ancillary study materials and as

a spur to spending substantial time with God

each morning."

From Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana), The St.

Louis Gambler and the Railroad Man: Lives and

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