Aa history Lovers 2006 moderators Nancy Olson and Glenn F. Chesnut page



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++++Message 3846. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The reading of "How it Works" at

the beginning of meeti...

From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/6/2006 4:10:00 PM
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This says Tex joins a week after she did????
Perhaps you're thinking of non-alcoholic Kay Miller

who brought AA to Calif.


yis,

Shakey Mike Gwirtz


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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++++Message 3847. . . . . . . . . . . . Silkworth''s Psychopath

From: robyn mitchell . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/6/2006 10:07:00 PM


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Hi Everybody,
Can anybody give me the definition of Psychopath

as it applied in the 1930s?


Silkworth refers to 'the psychopath' and William

James also in 'Varieties..,' but there is no definition.


I have gleaned the term might have been used instead

of 'neurotic', 'highly strung' or 'nutcase' but am

quite possibly wrong.
Thanks

________________________


From the moderator:
The big problem here is figuring out exactly what

the term "psychopath" referred to in the early

twentieth century, in other words, sixty to a

hundred years ago.


It refers TODAY to someone who shows a total moral

blindness, who can do great harm to other people

without feeling any moral qualms or remorse. They

are very frightening people.


But the article on psychopaths in the wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy

says that the term ""was once used to denote any

form of mental illness."


So the term has changed its meaning over the years.
So does anybody know enough about the history of

psychiatry to tell us NOT what the term means today,

BUT INSTEAD what the term meant in Silkworth's day,

and even earlier, back when William James wrote his

Varieties of Religious Experience at the very

beginning of the twentieth century, over a hundred

years ago?
Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana
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++++Message 3848. . . . . . . . . . . . Ed the atheist

From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/8/2006 3:39:00 PM


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"Ernest Kurtz"

(kurtzern at umich.edu)


To Tom E. and Glenn C. --
You may well be right. I am pretty sure that there

was more than one "Eddie" in early Akron -- I remember

some confusion on that when I was interviewing Ann Craw.

I think the non-Reilly Eddie committed suicide

in Cleveland very early on. I'm also inclined to

think that when Bill used a phrase such as "we shall

call," he did not then use the real name.
Still, . . . ? I sometimes feel like Bill did when

deluged by letters asking him to explain the

difference between "defects of character" and

"shortcomings" in the Twelve Steps: "I never dreamed

so many people would read so much into my simple

words."
So thanks for helping to keep me "simple." I honestly

like nothing more than seeing *Not-God* improved.

It is sadly out of date, with all that has been

discovered since 1978, and it is my fondest hope that

these discrepancies, little and large, finally motivate

someone to undertake the task of producing a completely

new "authoritative" history of A.A.


ernie
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++++Message 3849. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Required reading of the Preamble

From: Art Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/7/2006 7:48:00 AM


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One point in the replies is historically incorrect;

the AA Preamble was Conference-approved in 1958.


In June 1947, what we today call the "AA Preamble"

first appeared in the Grapevine. It was written by

Tom Y, Grapevine's first editor, and was based

on the foreword to the first edition Big Book. Today,

it is a common reading at the beginning of AA

meetings and that's how, over time, it came to be

called the "AA Preamble."
The 1958 Conference approved removing the word "honest"

from the term "honest desire to stop drinking" in

the original AA Preamble. AA legend sometimes

erroneously states that the word "honest" was removed

from Tradition 3. Neither the long nor short form

of Tradition 3 ever contained the word "honest." The

term "honest desire to stop drinking" is from the

Foreword to the first Edition Big Book.


The 1958 Conference advisory action also led to

changing the original wording of the AA Preamble

from "AA has no dues or fees" to "There are no

dues or fees for AA membership; we are self-supporting

through our own contributions."
The changes were approved by the General Service

Board in the summer of 1958. As of 1958, the changes

resulted in a Conference-approved version of

the AA Preamble as it is worded today.


Cheers

Arthur
-----Original Message-----

From: Bill Lash

(barefootbill at optonline.net)


Just so you know, the Preamble is NOT Conference

Approved Literature, it is written and copyrighted

by the AA Grapevine. Also, it is DEFINITELY NOT

required to be read at every sanctioned group.


Namaste.
Just Love,

Barefoot Bill


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++++Message 3850. . . . . . . . . . . . Ebby Thacher''s Grave

From: ckbudnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/7/2006 3:15:00 AM


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Does anyone know where Ebby Thacher is buried in Albany?
Chris B.

Raleigh, NC


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++++Message 3851. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Ebby Thacher''s Grave

From: kentedavis@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/8/2006 1:41:00 PM


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From kentedavis, Mel Barger, and Arthur Sheehan.
- - -
From: kentedavis@aol.com

(kentedavis at aol.com)


Ebby Thacher was buried in Albany Rural Cemetery.

The site is off of Middle Ridge Rd, Plot 56.


The cemetery can be found at the corner of Broadway

and Cemetery Ave.


There are a number of photos of this historical

cemetary at the Albany Rural Cemetery Website:

http://www.albanyruralcemetery.org/albrurcem/index.html
- - -
From the moderator:
Photo gallery showing some of the elaborate statuary

and tombs at various of the gravesites at:

http://www.albanyruralcemetery.org/albrurcem/Images/gallery/index.htm
A President of the United States is joined by 5

Governors, 3 members of the Continental Congress,

2 members of the Philadelphia Constitutional Convention,

13 members of the Colonial Assembly, 8 Presidential

Cabinet members, 5 Ambassadors and many Senators,

Congressmen, and Judges.


- - -
From: "Mel Barger"

(melb at accesstoledo.com)


Hi Chris,
Ebby Thacher is buried in the Albany Rural Cemetery,

north of the city.


He is in a large family plot with perhaps 15 to 20

graves of other family members.


The cemetery is large and hilly, with lots of winding

roads. If possible, it's best to get directions from

the office, as it's almost impossible to find the

plot just by driving around. I visited the cemetery

twice with Thacher family members and we got lost

both times!


Mel Barger
- - -
From: "Art Sheehan"

(ArtSheehan at msn.com)


Hi Chris
In the book "Ebby The Man Who Sponsored Bill W."

by Mel B on page 144 it states:


"Ebby was laid to rest next to his brother Ken in

the family plot in the Albany Rural Cemetery, just

north of the city. In death, he rejoined his

prominent family. The large monument that defines

the Thacher plot is that of George H. Thacher, Ebby's

distinguished grandfather and founder of the family

firm. Ebby's parents and other relatives are also

buried there."


Cheers

Arthur
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++++Message 3852. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Silkworth''s Psychopath

From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/9/2006 8:08:00 AM


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Robyn,
I just sent you an attachment with all the articles

I have found written by and about Dr. Silkworth. If

you do a search on "psychopath" within this attachment

you'll find 11 uses of the word. Maybe one will

explain a little bit more about what he means when

he uses the word. Also, here are some definitions

found in two dictionaries I have (one is from 1936

and one is from 1938). Hope all this is helpful, take

it easy and God bless.
Just Love,

Barefoot Bill


"One who is morally irresponsible; any disease of the

mind, insanity; mental disease or disorder."


- - -
-----Original Message-----

From: robyn mitchell

Subject: Silkworth's Psychopath
Hi Everybody,
Can anybody give me the definition of Psychopath

as it applied in the 1930s?


Silkworth refers to 'the psychopath' and William

James also in 'Varieties..,' but there is no definition.


I have gleaned the term might have been used instead

of 'neurotic', 'highly strung' or 'nutcase' but am

quite possibly wrong.
Thanks
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++++Message 3853. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Silkworth''s Psychopath

From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/11/2006 9:58:00 AM


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The impression I get from the Oxford English

Dictionary is that there have always been two slightly

different usages of the term. The earliest one the

OED identifies is from 1885:


"The psychopath . . . is a type which has only recently

come under the notice of medical science . . . Beside

his own person and his own interests, nothing is sacred

to the psychopath." But another quote, from 1890,

describes the psychopath as "a being whom Russian

laws refuse to punish even for murder."


In the second quote, as in some other writings of the

time, the term psychopath seems to mean the same thing as "psychotic,

" a person

with such severe mental

derangement that they are unable to distinguish

reality from delusion. We now know that schizophrenics

are rarely violent, but in the old days they were

assumed to be extremely dangerous.


The mid-20th century meaning of "psychopath" (given

by Glenn in the last post) derived from the concept of

the insane as violent and dangerous. The current

diagnostic category for someone who appears sane in

other respects but lacks empathy or conscience, is

"antisocial personality disorder". This has largely

replaced the term "psychopath," although either term

can be used.


But back to James and Silkworth. James meant

"psychotic" or "schizophrenic." He was referring to

George Fox, the founder of the Quaker religion.

Everyone who knew Fox recognized him as a man of great

spiritual gifts, even those who wanted him locked up

for disturbing the peace. Yet, his visions were so

strange and vivid that they sometimes resembled those

of a schizophrenic. James was illustrating his point

that the twice-born, the most clearly God-conscious,

would often be considered insane by ordinary medical

criteria. He certainly wasn't saying that Fox was evil.
Silkworth was apparently using the term "psychopath"

as a synonym for "emotionally unstable." Unlike

James, Silkworth didn't describe delusional thinking

such as a schizophrenic might have. Nor was he

referring to antisocial personality disorder. I

think he meant significant mental illness of any type,

which would have made recovery from alcoholism very

difficult (especially in the days before modern psychiatric medications were

available). Bipolar disorder, the

fashionable disease of our day, comes to mind.


Cora
--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, robyn mitchell

wrote:

>

> Hi Everybody,



>

> Can anybody give me the definition of Psychopath

> as it applied in the 1930s?

>

> Silkworth refers to 'the psychopath' and William



> James also in 'Varieties..,' but there is no definition.

>

> I have gleaned the term might have been used instead



> of 'neurotic', 'highly strung' or 'nutcase' but am

> quite possibly wrong.

>

> Thanks


> ________________________

>

> From the moderator:



>

> The big problem here is figuring out exactly what

> the term "psychopath" referred to in the early

> twentieth century, in other words, sixty to a

> hundred years ago.

>

> It refers TODAY to someone who shows a total moral



> blindness, who can do great harm to other people

> without feeling any moral qualms or remorse. They

> are very frightening people.

>

> But the article on psychopaths in the wikipedia



> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy

> says that the term ""was once used to denote any

> form of mental illness."

>

> So the term has changed its meaning over the years.



>

> So does anybody know enough about the history of

> psychiatry to tell us NOT what the term means today,

> BUT INSTEAD what the term meant in Silkworth's day,

> and even earlier, back when William James wrote his

> Varieties of Religious Experience at the very

> beginning of the twentieth century, over a hundred

> years ago?

>

> Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana



>
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++++Message 3854. . . . . . . . . . . . Word changes in the Big Book

From: Peter Tippett . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/9/2006 2:16:00 PM


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"Seething cauldrens of debate" can come from the most

innocuous of circumstances. In a Big Book Study while

reading page 66 from my 3rd Edition I read, "We turned

back to the list, for it held the key to the future.

We were prepared to look at it from an entirely different

angle. We began to see that the world and its people

really dominated us. In that state, the wrong-doing

of others, fancied or real, had power to actually kill.

How could we escape? We saw that these resentments

must be mastered, but how? We could not wish them away

any more than alcohol."
One of the people there said, "Whoa! My book says,

"We were prepared to look for it [not "at it"] from an

entirely different angle."
This led, of course, to a debate as to how it

changed the meaning, etc., but that is not the

purpose of my query...
I went and checked in my "library" and found the

following differences in the Edtions and Printings:


Page edit./printing Date "at" or "for"
79 1st, 11th June 1947 "at"

66 2nd, 7th 1965 "for"

66 3rd, 10th 1981 "for"

66 3rd, 56th 1996 "at"

66 4th, 14th Sept., 2004 "at"
And on the spine of the 310 th printing of the 3rd

Edition it says, "Third Edition: New and Revised."


New and Revised?
I just have a curiosity as to any information

surrounding the "at" vs. "for" and the "New and

Revised."
Anyone?
Thank you,
Pete Tippett
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++++Message 3855. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Eddie R. ("Eddie the atheist"?)

From: Tommy . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/11/2006 2:34:00 PM


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I heard Dr Bob`s son,Smitty speak once and he talked

about "Eddie R." In Sue`s and Smitty`s book,Children

of the Healer on page 41, Sue gives a account of

Eddie but it does not mention whether he was an

atheist or not. I did run across a few interesting

facts about Eddie as told first by Sue,and then Smitty.


Sue -- page 41:
Eddie R was their first try at sobering up someone

after Dr Bob got sober. He would shimmie down the

drainpipe and run off and get drunk. He even chased

Anne with a butcher knife once. He had a wife and

several kids at the time. He blacked his wife`s eyes

once while staying at Dr Bob's house. She remembers

how disapointed her Dad and Bill was when Eddie

didn`t want it...


Smitty remembers Eddie R with this account from

page 147:


Eddie was locked in a bedroom and Eddie would slide

down a drainpipe and get drunk. They captured him

several times,and one day he escaped and called them

from Cleveland and said he was going to commit

sucide. He wanted to give them time to get there and

be witnesses. He ate a tuna sandwich once at

Dr. Bob's and he had a allergy to tuna, and he grabbed

a butcher knife and chased Anne around.They finally

took him back to Ann Arbor and had him recommitted

to the mental institution. He later was discovered

to have a underlying mental condition of some kind.

When Dr Bob passed,Eddie showed up for his funeral,

and said he was sober one year and a member of the

Youngstown group.


Tommy
- - -
See AAHL message #3845 from "man_dred"

(man_dred at yahoo.co.uk)

>

> There was another atheist named Eddie R. who Dr. Bob



> and Bill worked with throughout the summer of 1935.

> (Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers, pp.77 -79)

>

> He was not well known and there was not much



> written about this Eddie. He was from Cleveland/Akron

> area. They gave up on him and had their first success

> with Bill Dotson.
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++++Message 3856. . . . . . . . . . . . History of the meaning of the term

psychopath

From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/13/2006 3:35:00 PM
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"David Johnson"

(crescentdave at yahoo.com) has sent a reference

to an extremely useful historical account of the

development of the concept of the psychopath:


http://ijo.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/45/3/325.pdf
This article should be read carefully by anyone who

wants to investigate what the word psychopath meant

at various points in the twentieth century. We need

to observe when the word was being used in order to

understand what it meant to the author. In particular,

THE TERM PSYCHOPATH HAD A MAJOR CHANGE IN MEANING

AROUND 1941.
- - -
1890-1902: William James, The Varieties of Religious

Experience, was based on lectures given in 1901-1902.

He wrote his famous book on the Principles of

Psychology a decade earlier, in 1890.


1939: William Duncan Silkworth, M.D., (1873?-1951)

was Director of the Charles B. Towns Hospital for

Drug and Alcohol Addictions in New York City in the

1930s, during which time Bill Wilson was admitted on

various occasions for alcoholism. Silkworth had a

profound influence on Wilson and introduced him to

the idea that alcoholism had a pathological, disease-

like basis. Silkworth wrote the chapter titled "The

Doctor's Opinion" in the book "Alcoholics Anonymous"

which came out in 1939.


THEN COMES THE SHIFT IN THE MEANING OF THE WORD PSYCHOPATH
1940's: The other three major early AA authors did

not begin writing until the 1940's, by which time

the meaning of the term psychopath had changed:
Ed Webster, The Little Red Book, 1946

Ralph Pfau (Father John Doe), first Golden Book, 1947

Richmond Walker, Twenty-Four Hours a Day, 1948
1950: Marty Mann, Primer on Alcoholism, 1950.

An important historical source for information

about AA ideas at that time, as they were being

disseminated to the general public; this is an

important source (which has not been utilized

nearly as much as it ought) for understanding one

the major strands of early AA thought. Anyone who

is going to write a real history of early AA has

to include Marty and her friends, including not

only the people who helped Marty put out the

Grapevine during its first few years, but also

Sgt. Bill S. (the major spokesman for the

psychologically-oriented wing of early AA) and

Nancy Olson, who was the founder of the AAHistoryLovers

and the author of "With a Lot of Help from Our

Friends" (describing AA in the 1970's).


- - -
Meanwhile, over the course of the past two centuries,

the concept of the psychopath was undergoing various

shifts in meaning. The following is taken from a table

in http://ijo.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/45/3/325.pdf


1812 -- Rush -- moral alienation of the mind, total

perversion of the moral faculties


1835 -- Prichard -- moral insanity, deplorable defect

in personality, no volitional control, which should be

a legal defense
1891 -- Koch -- psychopathic inferiority, a congenital

(inborn) personality type -- the prognosis depends

on whether it is chronic or temporary
1897 -- Maudsley -- moral imbecility, characteristic

of a criminal class affected by cerebral deficits,

however it is useless to punish those who cannot

control their behavior


1904 -- Krafft-Ebing -- morally depraved, savages

in society -- the prognosis is that they cannot be

helped at all, and must be confined to asylums

indefinitely


1915 -- Kraepelin -- psychopathic personalities,

they are the most vicious and wicked, born criminal,

liars, swindlers -- prognosis is poor
1941 -- Cleckley -- the psychopath is a detached,

narcissistic interpersonal style -- prognosis is poor


- - -
WITH THANKS TO DAVID JOHNSON FOR SENDING US THIS:
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006

From: "David Johnson"

Subject: Historical Note on Psychopathology
I hope this proves useful to you. If I can be of

any further service, please let me know. I'm happy



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