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From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/15/2006 10:33:00 PM
The statement in message 3059 regarding Traditions 2 and 9 is


The long form of the second Tradition never contained any mention of

"Our leaders are but trusted servants - they do not govern." Also


initial version of the long form of Tradition 9 did not contain the

term "they do not govern."
The April 1946 Grapevine contained an article by Bill W titled "Twelve

Suggested Points for AA Tradition" (re "Language of the

Heart" pgs

20-24). The article provided AA with the initial version of the "long

form" of the Traditions. A December 1947 pamphlet titled "AA

Tradition" also contained the same wording.

Both the short and long form of the Traditions have undergone changes

from their original wording. Pinning down the dates when these changes

occurred is no trivial matter (and a bit exasperating to find source

reference details).

The original long form of Tradition 9 contained the ending statement

"All such representatives are to be guided in the spirit of service,

for true leaders in AA are but trusted and experienced servants of the

whole. They derive no real authority from their titles. Universal

respect is the key to their usefulness." This was later changed to add

"they do not govern" after " ... authority from their

The November 1949 Grapevine contained the initial version of the

"short form" of the Traditions (re "Language of the

Heart" article "A

Suggestion for Thanksgiving" pgs 95-96). The November 1949 Grapevine

issue was dedicated to the Traditions in preparation for the

forthcoming Cleveland Convention in 1950. The wording of the second

Tradition was expanded to include the sentence "Our leaders are but

trusted servants - they do not govern." (Note: "AA Comes of

Age" pg

213, states that the short form was drafted in "1947 or


it was more likely early 1949).

What caused this addition to the short form of Tradition 2 (and later

addition to the long form of Tradition 9)? I can only surmise. From

1946 on, after the first publication of the Traditions, there was

friction (it grew to be rather intense) between Bill W and the

Alcoholic Foundation Board Trustees regarding Bill's ideas for

establishment of the General Service Conference (re "AA Comes of


pgs 208-214). Dr Bob was not very keen on the idea either. The

appearance of the "Our leaders are but trusted servants ..."


in the short form may well have been a product of the friction but I

cannot confirm it with a direct source reference.

Two wording changes were subsequently made to the November 1949

version of the short form of the Traditions: "primary spiritual


was changed to "primary purpose" in Tradition 6, and

"principles above

personalities" was changed to "principles before

personalities" in

Tradition 12. However, the November 1949 wording of the short form of

the Traditions was adopted and adapted by Al-Anon Family Groups in

September 1952 (re "Lois Remembers" pgs .177-178).

The Traditions were approved at AA's 15th anniversary and 1st

International Convention which took place at Cleveland, OH from July

28-30, 1950. Bill W chronicled the proceedings in a September 1950

Grapevine article titled "We Came of Age" (re "The Language

of the

Heart" pgs 117-124 also "AA Comes of Age" pg 213). The


meeting was held in the Cleveland Music Hall. Bill W was asked to sum

up the Traditions for the attendees. He did not recite either the long

or short form. Instead, he paraphrased a variation of the long form.

Following Bill's summation, the attendees adopted the 12 Traditions

unanimously by standing vote.

I cannot as yet determine the specific points in time when the wording

changes to the short and long form of Traditions took place. I believe

it occurred with the publication of the 12and12 in 1953 but I need

access to a first printing 12and12 to confirm it.

If anyone can tell me the if the wording of Traditions 6 and 12 in a

first printing 12and12 is the same as they are today I'd be most

grateful. If that's the case, then today's wording (short and long

form) of the Traditions was Conference-approved in 1953 with the

publication of the 12and12.
The version of the long form of the Traditions as we know them today

appeared in an appendix to the second edition Big Book printed in

1955. One oddity, previously mentioned in the AAHL forum, was that the

2nd edition Big Book Traditions appendix initially contained the

wording of the short form as they were printed in the Grapevine in

November 1949. There has been no subsequent posting as yet to AAHL

saying in what printing the appendix was changed to reflect the short

form version as worded today.

One final bit of information - a number of members erroneously believe

that Tradition 3 once contained the word "honest" and that it was

removed from the Tradition by the Conference. It's not true. The word

"honest" never appeared in either the long or short form of


3. The term comes from the Foreword to the first edition Big Book and

was later included in the initial version of the AA Preamble in the

June 1947 Grapevine. It was the AA Preamble that was changed by the

Conference in 1958 to remove the word "honest." The way the


Advisory Action was framed can give the erroneous impression that

Tradition 3 was changed.


-----Original Message-----

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kimball

Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 5:58 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Second Tradition (long and short)
At one time the long and short versions of the 2nd tradition were the

same. Then it was decided that since the words "Our leaders are but

trusted servants, they do not govern" was redundant with the long form

of tradition 9, that the phrase be dropped from the long form of

tradition 2.
----- Original Message -----

From: HJFree

Subject: Second Tradition (long and short)
Why is the "short version" of Tradition 2, longer than the long

Yahoo! Groups Links

++++Message 3068. . . . . . . . . . . . AA Corporations?

From: Charlie Bishop Jr. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/17/2006 5:30:00 PM

Hi all: help needed on below:
//The following are all CORPORATIONS: Alcoholics Anonymous World Services,


the General Service Board of Alcoholics Anonymous, Inc.; and the Alcoholics

Anonymous Grapevine, Inc. They are service organizations and corporations

whose purpose and existence is to serve the Fellowship. In effect, they are

temporary, albeit long-lived, committees which could all be thrown away and

Alcoholics Anonymous would still exist. Historically speaking, what group or

body of AA members had the authority to form these three corporations? How

would they have to be called together if they ever wished to vote on


or discarding these corporations? Is provision made for dismantling and

discarding any of these corporations in the Twelve Concepts, and who is


the power to take this action in the Twelve Concepts?/

Thanks, servus, Charlie B.
"Charlie Bishop Jr." = (bishopbk at


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
++++Message 3069. . . . . . . . . . . . The only AA censure motion?

From: Charlie Bishop Jr. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/17/2006 5:33:00 PM

Hi all: more help needed:
//In the Advisory Actions of the General Service Conference of A.A.,


edition, p. 147, we read that in 1995 a recommendation that "the

proposal to

censure the General Service Board" was "dismissed.

(Trustees)." the censure

motion was signed by 10 GSC Delegates. What was the background for this


move? Was this censure motion a reaction to the change in the Charter on

Article 2?//

thanks all, servus, Charlie B.
"Charlie Bishop Jr." = (bishopbk at


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
++++Message 3070. . . . . . . . . . . . AAWS legal attacks

From: Charlie Bishop Jr. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/17/2006 5:41:00 PM

//From "Charlie Bishop Jr." (bishopbk

at comcast.net)

We went through a period a few years back when AAWS was going after anyone


used the circle and triangle logo, and trying to sue them for trademark

infringement. This was defeated in the courts. One of the reasons was that

circle and triangle logos had been used for years by all sorts of


including some prohibitionist organizations in the period before AA came


This has all been discussed in detail in past messages in the


Recently I have had items (old books and pamphlets and memorabilia) which I


put up for sale on eBay removed because of protests made to eBay by AAWS,


on the grounds that "AA" or "Alcoholics Anonymous"

showed up somewhere on the

item, as part of a book title or somewhere on the item. Has anyone else had

items removed by eBay because of AAWS complaints? Please call or email me

directly if you have had this happen to you:
"Charlie Bishop Jr." (bishopbk at

comcast.net) phone

I am trying to assemble enough material to work out a history of how this


has developed in AA.
Also, what information can the members of the group give me on cases where


internet website or AA chat room has been threatened or removed by AAWS?


is the history of this issue? Although the Big Book concordance issue seems


be dead now, and is no longer being fought over, some of the earlier attacks


AAWS were on concordances to the Big Book which were posted online, on the

grounds apparently of supposed copyright infringement.
Historically speaking, have there been issues other than claims of copyright

infringement involved in any of these attacks on websites and chat rooms?

Again, if you would call or email me directly, this would help me in writing


historical article I am working on.
"Charlie Bishop Jr." (bishopbk at

comcast.net) phone

Thanks all, servus, Charlie B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
++++Message 3071. . . . . . . . . . . . An AA apology?

From: Charlie Bishop Jr. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/17/2006 5:36:00 PM

Hi again...more help needed...
//From "Charlie Bishop Jr." (bishopbk

at comcast.net)

A few years ago, a group called IWS published the Big Book in paperback for

sale in the U.S. and Canada and elsewhere, so that for a while there were


different editions of the Big Book available in print in English, one


by IWS and the other published by Alcoholics Anonymous World Services. AAWS

objected and in a settlement between AAWS and IWS, AAWS agreed to apologize


every AA group in the world for its harassment of IWS, Inc. That AAWS


was published in Box 4-5-9 and in the 1995 Final Report of the General


Conference. Could someone email me a copy of either the Box 4-5-9 or 1995


Final Report apologies or both? Thanks.

My email address is (bishopbk at comcast.net)
Also, is anyone aware of a Regional Forum that discussed

"lawsuits" in A.A.?//

Again thanks, servus, Charlie B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
++++Message 3072. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Green Pond, NJ

From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/18/2006 4:25:00 AM

Yes, From my transcriptions of Lois diary the reference to Horace C.

was a reference to Horace Chystal or "Chrys" as Lois refered to


After living with the Parkhursts for a short time immediately after

leaving 182 Bill and Lois moved to the Greenpond bungalow. Although

Lois' diary made reference to "leaving Greenpond for good" keep in

mind that this was an unedited diary without the option of seeing into

future events. This bungalow was used many times over the next several

years by Bill and Lois, more than any other place. Lois did not know

she'd be returning when she wrote this first diary entry.

As of the early 1990's the bungalow was still there according to a

resident who spent considerable time tracking it down.

This is the most discussion I've seen to date regarding the Green Pond

bungalow. I have enough of a visual retention of the 20 or so photos I

once had to be able to identify it. Homes back then didn't all look

the same and the number of older homes in Greenpond was supposedly not

Please advise,

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, ny-aa@a... wrote:


> The question about Green Pond, NJ, had to do with the place Bill W

> and Lois lived after they were forced out of 182 Clinton Street

> without even enough money to pay for a moving van. It started their

> period of "living around." Late April or early May 1939,

Horace C

> loaned them his summer cottage (also referred to as a bungalow).

> It got too cold that fall and they moved on.


> "Pass it On" 215 ff

> "Lois Remembers" 125


> It is likely that Horace C is the Horace Crystal who was involved

> early in the writing of the Big Book. It is unlikely that such a

> cottage would have survived this long. Still, the person who asked

> might be able to find property or tax or other records for a Horace

> Crystal in Green Pond, New Jersey.

++++Message 3073. . . . . . . . . . . . 100 Hundred Men and Women?

From: James Flynn . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/17/2006 6:04:00 PM

I would like to know why the preface to the first edition to the BB makes a

statement about 100 men and women, when there are only approximately 40


in the BB and by some accounts that I have read a maximum of 70 members in

AA at

the time the book was published.

Sincerely, Jim F.
++++Message 3074. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Henrietta Seiberling''s Children

From: greatcir@comcast.net> . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/17/2006 5:32:00 PM

On my visit to the Gate House in Akron last June I recall a framed printing


the small library where Bill first met with Dr. Bob.

I think it says Henrietta's two daughters were home at the time and recalled


tall thin man with big feet who reminded them of a movie star when Bill came


meet and talk to Dr. Bob.

As I had heard Smitty (Dr. Bob's son) talk about being the last person alive


was present when AA was formed, I asked the docent if the daughters were


alive and she thought one was but she was not sure. The house is so small


had to imagine that Smitty and the girls did not play or talk with each


while Bill and Bob had their infamous discussion thus it would seem Smitty


they were "present" too? Smitty and the two girls were probably

close in age?

Pete Kopcsak
From the moderator:
Is it possible that this is partly a dispute over definitions? Are we


about the first time that Bill W. and Dr. Bob ever met, or are we talking


the long period which followed that initial meeting, during which Bill


with Dr. Bob and Anne, and they talked for hours every day about how to use


new spiritual method for working with alcoholics?
The phrase "when AA was formed" could mean all sorts of things,

depending on how

you defined it and what perspective you were looking from: (1) the first


Bill W. and Dr. Bob met, (2) the period when Bill W. and Dr. Bob spent weeks


Dr. Bob and Anne's house figuring out how they were going to put this


together, (3) Dr. Bob's last drink after which he stayed sober to the end of


life (celebrated at Founders Day), (4) the point when they brought Bill D.


the program (which showed that they could teach it to other alcoholics),(5)


time when AA split from the Oxford Group, (6) the date and place where the


meeting was held which was called an "Alcoholics Anonymous

meeting" (where

Clarence Snyder insisted that he was the one who did that in Cleveland), (7)


point when "Alcoholics Anonymous" was chosen as the title of the

book they were

writing, or (8) from an Akron perspective, the period when the early Akron


people were dropping by Dr. Bob and Anne's house every day and using that as

their center for regular fellowship (the period when a number of the famous

founders of AA in various places in the upper midwest were getting sober

All that to one side, if any of Henrietta's surviving children were actually

there at the time of Bill W. and Dr. Bob's first meeting, their memories of


evening would be extremely valuable to record.

Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana, USA)
----- Original Message -----

From: "Mel Barger"

Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 4:25 PM

Subject: Henrietta Seiberling's Children

Hi All,

As far as I know, all three of Henrietta's children are still living. One

daughter was Dorothy, whom I met and interviewed in New York City. The other

daughter lived near Philadelphia, but I can't recall her name. The son,


Congressman John Seiberling, lives in Akron and still takes an interest in


I did meet him and he told me he was in boarding school when Bill and Bob


I don't know if the girls were home or not. I seem to recall that Dorothy

attended one of the elite women's colleges (maybe Wellesley), but she would


been too young for that in 1935. She now lives on the northern tip of Long

Mel Barger

++++Message 3075. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "Bill formally divorced AA in


From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/18/2006 4:51:00 AM
--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Jim"



It was a reference to the handing over of AA from the co-founders to

the fellowship and the backdrop for the Convention and the term, "AA

Comes of Age". I didn't mean to convey that he abandoned AA at any

time. Perhaps "divorced" was too strong a term and therefore I


corrected. Instead, "he gave himself the space to approach the disease

from angles which were precluded to AA by Tradition" would be a more

accurate statement. (Step 10).
Thank you for pointing this out.


> "... Bill formally divorced AA in 1955."


> This is erroneous information. Bill was involved in AA at many and

> various levels until he died. He was writing for the AA Grapevine

> until 1970. He died in January 1971.


> The following articles were written in December 1955 and December

> 1970, respectively.


> _____________________________


> The Finest Gift of All

> Christmas, 1955

> Volume 12 Issue 7

> December 1955


> EACH of us in AA has received the gift of sobriety. All of us have

> found a new usefulness and most of us have found great happiness. This

> adds up to the gift of life itself--a new life of wondrous possibility.


> What then are we going to do with this great gift of life?


> Because our experience has taught us, we are quite sure that we know.

> We shall try to share with every fellow sufferer all that has been so

> freely given us. We shall try to carry AA's message to those who need

> and want it, wherever in the world they may be. We shall daily

> re-dedicate ourselves to the God-given truth that "It is by

> self-forgetting that one finds; it is by giving that one



> For us of AA, this is the Spirit of Christmas. This is the finest gift

> of all.


> Lois joins me in our warmest greetings. May the New Year of 1956 be

> the greatest time of giving and of receiving that we in AA have ever

> known.


> Bill W.


> Copyright (c) The AA Grapevine, Inc. (December 1955). Reprinted with

> permission.


> ---------------------------------------------------------------


> Christmas Message

> Volume 27 Issue 7

> December 1970


> GRATITUDE is just about the finest attribute we can have, and how

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