Aa history Lovers 2006 moderators Nancy Olson and Glenn F. Chesnut page

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the AA name and with no Oxford Group affiliation.

Clarence has presentday devotees who use his methods and report wonderful

outcomes as a result. That speaks well for Clarence and ought to be

publicized for those who will accept the special points he offered. His

wife, Grace, carried on his work after his passing in 1984.

Clarence was continuously critical of Bill W. and told me that "Bill


had a program." Bill was always conciliatory towards Clarence and never

stopped giving him credit for his fine work in Cleveland. He would have

liked having Clarence as a warm and supportive friend, but that didn't

happen. They did have a good conversation at the International Convention

in Toronot in 1965, a meeting initiated by Bill. I hope there is now

harmony as both of them attend meetings of the Big Group in the Sky.

Mel Barger

++++Message 3700. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: APOAR and Robert Emmett Rack

From: Joe Adams . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/11/2006 12:30:00 PM

I'm not old enough to have gone through APOAR, but my

father did and

swears by it. He's now 80 with 45 years of recovery

behind him (DOS:

2/6/1961). I have one of his two copies of APOAR -

Applied Principles of

Alcoholic Recovery, subtitled "Alocholism - A

Metaphysical Malady". My

copy gives a 1965 and 1966 copyrights with no mention

of previous

editions. Library of Congress Card No. A782629
When dad tried to get sober he had several shakey

starts and credits

the APOAR approach to locking him in. They focused on

the process* of

Steps 4 thru 9 and had a good deal of success in the

early 1960s with men

of the Freedom Group in downtown Los Angeles. The

book is not very

well written but saturated with experience on doing

the Inventory and

Amends steps.
*I say "process" because the book does not refer to

the the Twelve

Steps or Alocholics Anonymous in any of the portions

I've read. It is

clearly the Inventory (listed as "Knowledge") and

Amends (identified as

"Release"). Dad stil refers to 4 and 5 as the

Knowledge Steps and 6-7-8-9

as the Release Steps. That is not in the book. If

you are familier

with the Big Book and its history, it sometimes reads

like a lawyer

advising how to avoid being sued by AA.
Somehwere in the middle they switched from Applied

Principles of

ALCOHOLIC Recovery to Applied Principles of ADDICTIVE

Recovery - I suspect

some commercial possibilities were the reason for the

The opening section of the book include "To The

Overweight Society"

with comment on Applied Principles of AVOIRDUPOIS

Recovery and connections

between alcoholism and overeating, followed with a

food plan that is

amazingly similar to Overeater's Anonymous original

"Grey Sheet"

abstinence food plan. Interesting.

From my dad's discussions with me about the One Way

Group and the

author, Rob someone who took the ideas of the steps

and presented them in a

way guys from Skid Row in L.A. could grasp, with solid

action and tons

of writing. Dad was one of many men who had trouble

starting his

sobriety and credits the deep inveotry of APOAR with

his foundation. Rob R.

thought he was going to be rich and became something

of a somebody in

West Coast recovery. For a time.
Dad says Rob hit a snag and found he needed to become

a more anonymous

to work his program. Apparently Mr. R went back into

AA as an

anonymous member and reclaimed his recovery. APOAR as

a franchise ... I'm not

sure where else it was used. Prisons would be

reasonable target - APOAR

offered hard core, no nonsense Recovery without any

I treat it as a dialect of the message from the big

book. If I could

find a way scan the book without destroying the

binding, I would. The

book (8.5 x 11, green cover, tape binding with

staples, 199 pages,

multi-lith - which was one step up from mimeograph).

I have a scan of a small "Inventory Guide" that was

used in conjunction

with the APOAR book, but was not part of their

materials. I'll send a

copy of the scan with this message for Glenn to see if

it would be

appropriate to post to the group's Files section
I have pulled a good deal from their book for working

with the men I

have sponsored over the years. The focus is on a

THOROUGH 4th, followed

by 5 thru 9 give a foundation for recovery. The ones

who have gone

through a solid 9th tend to stick around and stay

sober. In myh own

experiences - which is just one drunk - everyone who

has stopped somewhere

between 5 and 9 have gone back out.
Hope that helps.
Shakey1aa@aol.com wrote:
Is anyone familiar with APOAR(Applied Principles

of Alcoholic Recovery) by Robert Emmett Rack and

if it is still being used in Prisons and


I'm not in "the field" but have looked at what he

has written and wonder about its success.

A closed mouth gathers no feet.

Do You Yahoo!?

Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around


++++Message 3701. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Re: Richard Peabody died drunk?


From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/11/2006 12:53:00 PM
Hi Mel
I have found only indirect, not direct, references about Peabody but

they seem to add some substance to the probability that he didn't stay

sober. Again though in fairness, I've not yet encountered "proof

positive." It reminds me somewhat of the assertions regarding Rowland

H and whether he died sober or not - I've seen what appears to be

credible reporting on both sides. However, in the message where I said

that Peabody died drunk I really should have said that Peabody may

have died drunk based on anecdotal reports.

I doubt strongly that the absence of the word "alcoholism"

specifically stated on a death certificate would serve to prove that

Peabody died sober. For example, people die of emphysema (such as Ebby

T and Bill W) yet the death certificate might show heart failure or

something else as opposed to "smoking" as the cause of death. The

effects of alcoholism on the body is equally pernicious in causing

death as a consequence of high blood pressure, diabetes, cirrhosis and

a host of other maladies that would likely not be described as

"alcoholism" on a death certificate.

-----Original Message-----

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mel Barger

Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 8:40 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Richard Peabody died drunk?


Hi Arthur,
I believe the article you referred to was written by Kathy McCarthy,

who is the daughter of the late Ray McCarthy, a pioneer in alcoholism


I knew Kathy about 20 years ago but haven't been in touch with her

I don't have the article at hand but I seem to remember that she

said something like "it is commonly believed that Peabody died


or something like that.

"Commonly believed" is hearsay and not real verification. Nell

Wing also thought Peabody drank again, but had no proof of it. I'm

suspecting that all this may have been rumor from an early AA such as

Jim Burwell, who may or may not have had proof to support the claim.

In fairness to Peabody's memory, somebody ought to track this down

to determine what was the real cause of Peabody's death, as reported

on his death certificate.

Unless alcoholism was specifically stated there, we cannot assume he

actually went back to drinking.
Mel Barger

(melb at accesstoledo.com)

Yahoo! Groups Links
++++Message 3702. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Orthodox Movement?

From: ricktompkins@comcast.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/11/2006 10:41:00 AM

Good morning AAHL group,
The conduct of some early AA members (alluded to in the last few messages


the First International Convention) was closer to inciting mob action than


fostering unity.

I have read one letter, sent across the U.S. to AA groups of the time, from


New Jersey AA member who wrote in 1950 against the creation of the General

Service Conference. Full of suspicion and accusations, the letter closed


his name as a member of the Orthodox Group.
Did an organized Orthodox "Group" or "Movement" really

exist? Actually a small

number of AAs remained at constant odds with the 1940s Alcoholic Foundation


Bill in NYC, but I have found very few records of an actual "Orthodox


Remember that both Bill and Dr. Bob served as AF Trustees and examine one

recurring complaint: during the 1940s both Bill and Dr. Bob were rumored to


lots of money in royalties from Big Book sales. Bill presented the meager


record of payments at meetings in Ohio and elsewhere that refuted the

charges of

profiteering. The idea of Bill and Bob receiving royalties as being

"hypocritical and anti-AA" softened up a bit when communication


Truth and fact never quieted those early personalities at odds with Bill,

but I

believe we are a better Fellowship today because of their opinions.

Incidentally, Bill experienced much frustration with the inactions of

non-alcoholic AF Trustees, when it came down to their understanding of our

developing AA Traditions as well as the concept of an annual World (General)

Service Conference. The Conference idea developed from years of a consensus

search before the November 1950 pamphlet "Our Third Legacy-Will You

Accept It?"

drove the final consensus search.

To an "Orthodox Movement" of the 1940s I could toss a few more

names in that

contrarian group but there seems no need to fling around any more of their



A lot of talk (and, in early AA, written words) is always cheap. Here in

Illinois AA Archives are letters written between a few 1940s Illinois

members in

various cities that are full of slander and sarcasm about other AAs. The

correspondence is under the sensitive/confidential classification level and


little relevance to Illinois AA history outside of being an examples of

colorful, personal, negative conduct.
I have never seen any evidence that Bill's tack was to counter-balance or

politick a consensus against an Orthodox Movement.

The intent to search for consensus actually developed a relatively strong


for our adolescent Fellowship. Bill (and others) gave us an effective


for our own conduct, to seek diverse views and move forward. Our AA group

consciences (right or wrong, correct or in error) remain the driving force


prudent changes or reaffirmation, but fortunately we are a Fellowship that

corrects itself! Our Tradition Two, Concept Four, and Concept Five encourage

minority views, but emphasize that abiding with an informed group conscience


a much more important activity. There seem to be two types of criticism from


members: constructive or libelous--we grow with one of them (the former) but


historical survival came with both.

Yours in fellowship,

Rick T., Illinois

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
++++Message 3703. . . . . . . . . . . . Clarence did not write program for

1st Internat''l Conf.

From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/10/2006 7:55:00 PM
Talk about resentments, being closed minded and


Clarence had nothing to do with the writing of the

program for that event. The Stanley brothers were

pretty much in charge. Art says "This was all part of

Clarence Snyder's claim..." Again Art - CLARENCE HAD



Clarence also never claimed that the Goldrick Group

was the first to use the TERM Alcoholics Anonymous to

describe itself. There is NO evidence or documentation

(maybe there is now, like the so-called loaner stamp

on the multilith which was never there before) showing

where gatherings of members of the Fellowship called

these meetings Alcoholics Anonymous meetings. Clarence

called the meeting itself an Alcoholics Anonymous

meeting after the book of the same name - he wasn't

referring to the Fellowship or the book or the

foundation but specifically the MEETING. NOWHERE in

the archives (unless it was recently manufactured) is

there a reference to holding an Alcoholics Anonymous

meeting where a bunch of members met to share their

experience, strength and hope.
There is also NO evidence showing that Alcoholics

Anonymous was ever called AA prior to Clarence using

that term. Nell Wing said that Clarence was the first

to use the initials AA as a description of Alcoholics

Anonymous. Ergo...Clarence was the founder of AA (not

Alcoholics Anonymous but the term AA).

++++Message 3704. . . . . . . . . . . . Two other stories removed from 4th


From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/10/2006 4:44:00 PM
Much to my regret two other stories were removed

in the 4th edition which I thought were historically

*FROM FARM TO CITY, by Ethel Macy (Ethel's date of

sobriety was May 8, 1941. (She was the first woman

to get sober in Akron.)

Abby Golrick (It was at his home where Clarence

Snyder started Cleveland's first AA meeting, just

one month after the BB was published.)

Bob S., Richmond, IN
++++Message 3705. . . . . . . . . . . . The Vicious Cycle: the puzzle solved

From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/10/2006 7:42:00 PM

Jared L. solves the problem, also Shakey Mike notes

that there were two different editions of EXPERIENCE,

STRENGTH, AND HOPE, the first with and the second

without "The Vicious Cycle."

With other notes by Kim "Skid" Rowe, Sam Sommers,

and Maria Hoffman.

Plans for the 4th ed. BB were changed and "The

Vicious Cycle" was put back into the BB after ESH

was already out. The 2nd ed. of ESH corrected what

was now an erroneous statement (although it had

been made in good faith), and removed "The Vicious

Cycle" from this later edition.

If you get the most recent versions of the BB and

ESH, it all works out correctly now!

From: "jlobdell54"

(jlobdell54 at hotmail.com)

Jimmy B's Story (The Vicious Cycle)
I understand the story had been dropped from the

4th edition and thus incorporated in EXPERIENCE

STRENGTH AND HOPE but the Publications Committee

decided that one story should be added back to

the Fourth Edition (I believe for reasons of length

of book) and "The Vicious Cycle" was added back,

perhaps because it had been the last one to be

omitted. But by that time ESH was in press?

From: Shakey1aa@aol.com

(Shakey1aa at aol.com)

My 1st edition 1st printing of ESandH does have the

Vicious Cycle in it.

The 2nd editon does not have it.
GSO must have removed it after realizing they

had made a mistake.

Not their first mistake or mine.
Shakey "On the way to Baton Rouge" Mike


The original problem which was posed: the first

edition of ESH contains "The Vicious Cycle" and

claims that it was removed from the fourth edition

of the BB. But the first printing of the fourth

edition of the BB does in fact HAVE "The Vicious

Cycle" in its story section.

Kim "Skid" Rowe, Sam Sommers, and Maria Hoffman

all reported their puzzlement at what they found

in their copies of the ESH and BB.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "Kimball"

(rowek at softcom.net)
Dear Mike

My copy of "Experience, Strength and Hope" is a

First Edition, First Printing, April 2003.
On pg 220 is the announcement that the following

stories were eliminated from the Big Book.

On pg 256 is the story "The Vicious Cycle."
My copy of "Alcoholics Anonymous" (Big Book) is

a Fourth Edition, First Printing, October 2001.

On pg 219 is the story "The Vicious Cycle,"

reportedly eliminated.

Just to make sure I understand your response

correctly, are you saying that your page 256 of

your copy of "Experience Strength and Hope"

does not have "The Vicious Cycle"?

Kim "Skid" Rowe
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
From: "scmws"

(scmws at yahoo.com)

In my 1st edition 1st printing copy of Experience,

Strength and Hope, "The Vicious Cycle" does appear

on page 256-267. Page 219-220 is the introduction

to the section of stories deleted from the third

edition when the fourth edition of the Big Book were


I agree that as a fellowship we could and should

use all the stories in ESandH and the fourth edition

of the Big Book more than we do.
Grace to you

Sam Sommers

Elkhart Indiana
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
From: "momaria33772"

(jhoffma6 at tampabay.rr.com)

Thanks to the person who brought up this question.


I am using my First ed., First Printing of both of

these books. Mine does certainly have both stories

printed, the BB is on page 219, ESandH is on pg. 256.
Both are in Table of contents, and in the book itself.
The description given on the front Book cover,

first sentence, says, "The collection of stories

offers back to the AA fellowship the experience of

56 members whose stories are no longer available

in the book Alcoholics Anonymous."
In 2006 this is the first notice I have heard,

I guess that means I haven't made much use of the

new book. OOOPS!
Hope Baton Rouge is a fun, informative time for

all who can make it there. Enjoy!

L and S,

Maria Hoffman

++++Message 3706. . . . . . . . . . . . Is AAWS tightening up restrictions

on reprinting?

From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/14/2006 12:21:00 AM
I got an e-mail from someone asking if I've heard that AAWS is pulling

permission to reprint anything they "own." Grapevine articles,


by Bill etc. He said that AAWS alone from now on will be the sole

source of anything related to AA.
Anyone hear of this?
++++Message 3707. . . . . . . . . . . . Culture Alcohol and Society Quarterly

newsletter (Brown)

From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/14/2006 10:39:00 AM
For those HistoryLovers who might be interested (the newsletter

contains occasional articles on AA history, tho' recently more on the

Washingtonians), issues are available free in pdf format at


++++Message 3708. . . . . . . . . . . . 2007 History and Archives Gathering

June 16th

From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/12/2006 5:16:00 PM
The 2007 Multi-District History and Archives Gathering

will be held at least on Saturday June 16th, 2007,

somewhere in the triangle formed by Lebanon PA (2006),

Elizabethtown PA (2004) and Summerdale PA (2003

across the Susquehanna from Harrisburg).
The most likely location is Lebanon, Pennsylvania.
Please keep the date free if you're interested in

attending - - which we hope you are. I hope those

who came in any of the past years will be in touch

with me soon to let me know if they're coming

in 2007 and if they have any suggestions.
Thanks very much -- Jared Lobdell
jlobdell54@hotmail.com (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com)
P.S. Besides hearing (with suggestions) from those

who were at the past three Gatherings, we would like

to hear from others who would be interested in

coming to the 2007 Gathering, to gauge interest.

Message #3609: Report on last year's Gathering

From: "Al Welch" welch@a-1associates.com

(welch at a-1associates.com)
Had an opportunity to attend the "Multi-District

History and Archives Gathering" in Lebanon, Pennsylvania,

last Saturday (June 24, 2006). The event was really

Jared Lobdell headed up the entire event and

participated in some of the presentations.
Mitch Klein gave a really great presentation of his

experiences with Clarence Snyder. It was a warm and

genuine expression of history.
Glenn Chesnut, the lead speaker, was very explicit

in his topic of writing about AA history. He and I

had exchanged some "shaggy dog" stories over the last

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