Aa history Lovers 2006 moderators Nancy Olson and Glenn F. Chesnut page



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>

>

> Thanks,



>

> Jon


>

>

> > From: "Mitchell K."



>

> > Reply-To:

> > Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 15:15:01 -0800 (PST)

> > To:

> > Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] DSM-IV definitions:

> Abuse vs. Dependence

> > (Alcoholism)

> >


> > PLEASE NOTE. If using the DSM IV as any sort of

> > defining guideline for alcoholism one must

> remember

> > the following: The DSM does state that a person

> can

> > remain in total remission from alcohol dependence



> and

> > continue drinking as long as they do not exhibit

> the

> > criteria used for the diagnosis of dependence.



> > Abstinence from the use of beverage alcohol does

> not


> > define remission.... the lack of exhibiting the

> > criteria does. If one uses Alcoholics Anonymous

> and

> > the DSM in the same manner they are not congruent.



> >

> > From: Mitchell K.

> > (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)

>

>



>

>

>


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++++Message 3053. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Green Pond, NJ

From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/11/2006 12:33:00 PM


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Hi Russ,
In some photos of the Green Pond residence I can tell you that it is a

one story cottage and that in the early 90's it was painted white with

dark green trim. I was told by the photographer that it is in a gated

community and difficult to access without knowing someone who lives

there. As a first avenue of approach attending a meeting in

Newfoundland or the closest town you can find and stating your

objective would be a good approach. Failing that you could approach

the homeowner's association but I imagine they've been approached before.


Another method would be to go to the County seat and look in the

records book under Chrystal. This would probably be the owner's

surname. It was Horace's uncle who I believe first name was Frank.
Please keep me informed of your progress as this is a matter of great

interest to me.


-merton
Another met
- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Rob wrote:

>

> 182 Clinton St



> Brooklyn heights, NY

>

> _______________________



>

> In response to Message 3032

>

> From: "Russ S"



> Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006

> Subject: Green Pond, NJ

>

> Dear History Lovers,



>

> I live in a town 10 miles from Green Pond, New Jersey.

>

> I would like to find the house Bill and Lois lived in before they



moved to Stepping Stones. Any suggestions on where to start?

>

> Russ from Ogdensburg, NJ



>
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++++Message 3054. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Green Pond, NJ

From: ny-aa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/11/2006 2:30:00 PM


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The question about Green Pond, NJ, had to do with the place Bill W

and Lois lived after they were forced out of 182 Clinton Street

without even enough money to pay for a moving van. It started their

period of "living around." Horace C loaned them his summer cottage

or bungalow. It got too cold that fall and they moved on.
"Pass it On" 215 ff

"Lois Remembers" 125


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++++Message 3055. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Green Pond, NJ

From: ny-aa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/14/2006 12:21:00 AM


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The question about Green Pond, NJ, had to do with the place Bill W

and Lois lived after they were forced out of 182 Clinton Street

without even enough money to pay for a moving van. It started their

period of "living around." Late April or early May 1939, Horace C

loaned them his summer cottage (also referred to as a bungalow).

It got too cold that fall and they moved on.


"Pass it On" 215 ff

"Lois Remembers" 125


It is likely that Horace C is the Horace Crystal who was involved

early in the writing of the Big Book. It is unlikely that such a

cottage would have survived this long. Still, the person who asked

might be able to find property or tax or other records for a Horace

Crystal in Green Pond, New Jersey.
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++++Message 3056. . . . . . . . . . . . Where were the Wilsons'' living?

From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/12/2006 2:58:00 AM


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Russ asked: "I would like to find the house Bill and Lois lived in

before


they moved to Stepping Stones"
Dear Russ,
Bill and Lois had to vacate there lovely home at 182 Clinton Street in

Brooklyn Hts. in April of 1939. Between then and moving into the Bedford

Hills residence they lived at nearly 50 places (P. 214 - Pass It On),

including the 24th Street Clubhouse. But at last,

in 1941, while living with friends in Chappaqua, NY, just north of the city,

they were offered, and accepted, the great deal on the Bedford Hills house

(Page 259 of "Pass It On" ).
When asked how they accomplished living so many different places, Bill

understated, "we were invited out to dinner a lot!"


The NJ Area Archives presented a great display at the Toronto International

Convention last year - this would be a great source of information for

you.
Hope this helps,
Bob S. Indiana
Dear History Lovers,
I live in a town 10 miles from Green Pond, New Jersey.
I would like to find the house Bill and Lois lived in before they moved to

Stepping Stones. Any suggestions on where to start?


Russ from Ogdensburg, NJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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++++Message 3057. . . . . . . . . . . . alcohol content grapevine article

From: Cheryl F . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/12/2006 5:49:00 PM


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About Alcoholism - Alcoholism Information, Research, and Treatment

What's Not Cooking? Volume 47 Issue 3

August 1990
Many of these items are contrary to AA philosophy. Their publication here

does


not mean that the Grapevine endorses or approves them; they are offered

solely


for your information.
Don't blame Julia Child for leading you astray: We all were convinced that

the


alcohol in the sherry she so liberally added to dishes would cook away, with

only the wine's flavor left behind. But now, it turns out, we can't have our

brandy and eat it too, because alcohol, as recent research reveals, has

tremendous staying power.


At the request of the U.S. Department of Agriculture, food scientist Evelyn

A.

Augustin of Washington State University in Pullman, along with her husband,



Jorg

A. Augustin of the Food Research Center at the University of Idaho in

Moscow,

recently tested six recipes to determine the fate of the alcohol called for.



Their results, reported at the latest annual meeting of the American

Dietetic


Association, were a big surprise to everyone. They found that the burgundy

in

pot roast Milano, for example, doesn't completely disappear even after two



and a

half hours of simmering on the stove; that a dish of scalloped oysters,

baked at

375 degrees for 25 minutes, retains 45 percent of the alcohol in the dry

sherry

used; that Grand Marnier sauce, which is removed from the heat when the



called-for liqueur is added, gets hot enough to lose only 15 percent of its

alcohol.
Especially surprising, though, was what happened--or didn't happen--to the

brandy in the cherries jubilee. The recipe calls for dark sweet cherries to

be

mixed with corn-starch and heated in a chafing dish to thicken. One quarter



of a

cup of brandy is then ignited in a separate pan and poured over the

cherries.

But even this intense flaming process, the Augustins discovered, burned off

no

more than 25 percent of the alcohol. They tested the recipe several times,



and

on each try the flame died, while 75 percent of the alcohol survived.


Lears
Don't listen to the people in AA; Listen to the AA in people.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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++++Message 3058. . . . . . . . . . . . Henrietta Seiberling''s Children

From: whanny@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/11/2006 10:50:00 AM


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Does anybody know if Henrietta Seiberling's children were present when Bill

W and


Dr Bob met for the first time?
I've heard Bob Smith Jr say many times that he was the last person living

who


was present on that day, but I thought that Henrietta had a couple of small

children.


Thanks,

Whanny
____________________________


From the moderator:
I heard Henrietta Seiberling's son speak at the National Archives Workshop

at

Akron, Ohio, shortly before his death. Gail LaC., who started that series of



excellent annual workshops, could tell us the exact date.
Henrietta's son was a U.S. Representative, who went to Tip O'Neill and

enlisted


his aid in getting approval from the Russians (via backdoor unofficial

channels)

for AA people to come over and start the first AA groups in the Soviet

Union.


That was an important part of the prehistory of the establishment of AA in

Russia, which is not usually known.


Dr. Bob's son Smitty, a really fine man, lived quite a few years longer than

Henrietta's son. I am sure that at the time you heard him say he was the

last

survivor that this was in fact the case.


But I would be interested in anything the members of the group know about

Henrietta's children, because my only knowledge comes from hearing her son

speak

that one time.


Glenn C.
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++++Message 3059. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Second Tradition (long and

short)


From: Kimball . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/11/2006 6:57:00 PM
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At one time the long and short versions of the 2nd tradition were the same.

Then it was decided that since the words "Our leaders are but trusted

servants,

they do not govern" was redundant with the long form of tradition 9,

that the

phrase be dropped from the long form of tradition 2.


----- Original Message -----

From: HJFree

Subject: Second Tradition (long and short)
Why is the "short version" of Tradition 2, longer than the long

form?
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++++Message 3060. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Henrietta Seiberling''s Children

From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/14/2006 5:25:00 PM


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Hi All,

As far as I know, all three of Henrietta's children are still living. One

daughter was Dorothy, whom I met and interviewed in New York City. The other

daughter lived near Philadelphia, but I can't recall her name. The son,

former

Congressman John Seiberling, lives in Akron and still takes an interest in



AA.

I did meet him and he told me he was in boarding school when Bill and Bob

met.

I don't know if the girls were home or not. I seem to recall that Dorothy



attended one of the elite women's colleges (maybe Wellesley), but she would

have


been too young for that in 1935. She now lives on the northern tip of Long

Island.


Mel Barger
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++++Message 3061. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Green Pond, NJ

From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/14/2006 12:55:00 PM


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The correct name is Horace Chrystal.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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++++Message 3062. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Green Pond, NJ

From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/14/2006 7:13:00 PM


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At 23:21 1/13/2006 , ny-aa@att.net wrote:
//The question about Green Pond, NJ, had to do with the place Bill W and

Lois


lived after they were forced out of 182 Clinton Street without even enough

money


to pay for a moving van .... Late April or early May 1939, Horace C loaned

them


his summer cottage .... It is unlikely that such a cottage would have

survived


this long.//
Not so quick, here. I would note that my family's camp on Lake

Memphremagog in Northern Vermont was bought by my grandfather when my

mother, born in 1913, was a pre-schooler, and I can tell you it is still in

excellent shape as are many of the neighboring cottages of similar vintage.

One

has to take care of them, but they are still very livable.


Tommy H in Baton Rouge
.
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++++Message 3063. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Green Pond, NJ

From: ricktompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/14/2006 11:31:00 PM


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My family vacationed at Green Pond for generations, usually for weeks in the

summer, and from what a pre-teenager can remember, I recall that our various

rented cottages (bungalows) were built in the earliest quarter of the

twentieth

century. Old stoves, attic fans, all wooden bungalows, etc. Green Pond is

about


a mile long, shaped like a rectangle, with a large Lodge-plus-Hotel at one

end (that

building should still be standing, too, unless it burnt down since 1960...).

Most all of the cottages had no garages, just a driveway between them for

cars.

Its US Post Office looked like something out of the wild west (plenty of



fodder

for kids games), a small, single-room building that still had a horse hitch

in

front of it.



There were many single-lot homes at the water's edge around the lake's

perimeter, and most likely are now part of the 'gated' community, of course

with

updated homes.



The Lodge was a set of beautiful white Adirondack-style of buildings (think

of

green painted Adirondack chairs around a long, curved veranda) but I also



remember it as unoccupied during the summers my family rented cottages

there.


Other relatives had stayed at the Lodge in earlier times. It was one site of

many adventures that a 4 to 7-year old and his brothers could create...and

Green

Pond was where my swimming got better and I grew to love bodies of water.



Probably foreshadowed my later love of bodies of distilled spirits!

If a summer cottage that Horace provided Lois and Bill that 1939 summer was

around the same location on Green Pond, "bungalow" is a fitting

description of

something that my parents rented 15 years later.

rick t.
--- Original Message -----

From: ny-aa@att.net

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 11:21 PM

Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Green Pond, NJ


The question about Green Pond, NJ, had to do with the place Bill W

and Lois lived after they were forced out of 182 Clinton Street

without even enough money to pay for a moving van. It started their

period of "living around." Late April or early May 1939, Horace C

loaned them his summer cottage (also referred to as a bungalow).

It got too cold that fall and they moved on.


"Pass it On" 215 ff

"Lois Remembers" 125


It is likely that Horace C is the Horace Crystal who was involved

early in the writing of the Big Book. It is unlikely that such a

cottage would have survived this long. Still, the person who asked

might be able to find property or tax or other records for a Horace

Crystal in Green Pond, New Jersey.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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++++Message 3064. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: DSM-IV definitions: Abuse vs.

Dependence (Alcoholism)

From: Jon Markle . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/15/2006 12:02:00 AM
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The entire diagnostic is about using the substance, alcohol.
The criteria you cite do not exclude the substance.
I venture to say this is one reason why untrained laypersons should not be

using


clinical works to back up their arguments. Taking out of context, one can

use


sentences from just about any form of literature to make it appear that the

entire volume says something quite the opposite of what is intended. Many

people do the same thing with the Big Book . . ..
Not only do I think your argument fails, in fact, I asked several

clinicians, some of which were responsible for writing the DSM-IV-TR, about

this

question and they were incredulous that any accredited clinician would make



such

a claim.
Jon Markle

Raleigh
> From: "Mitchell K."

> Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 07:23:20 -0800 (PST)

> To:

> Subject: DSM-IV definitions: Abuse vs. Dependence (Alcoholism)

>

> Sorry it took so long to reply....



> Page 180 under Substance-Related Disorders in DSM IV -

> TR version is the same but I'm not sure if the page #

> is the same): (DSM IV TR web link =

> http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/disorders/subdep.htm

>

>

> Early Full Remission - This specifier is used if, for



> at least 1 month, but for less than 12 months, no

> CRITERIA for Dependence or Abuse have been met

> (emphasis added)

>

> Sustained Full Remission - This specifier is used if



> none of the CRITERIA for Dependence or Abuse have been

> met at any time during the period of 12 months or

> longer (emphasis added)

>

> The DSM is not concerned about drinking or not



> drinking. It relates to meeting the specific criteria

> for dependence or abuse. It's not anything new....APA

> is not about abstinence as a criteria.

>

>



>

> Mitchell


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++++Message 3065. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Henrietta Seiberling''s Children

From: Bob McK. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/15/2006 8:53:00 AM


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John Seiberling's demise is news to me (the NE Ohio Area Archivist) and, I

think, to him. He spoke at the Sept. 25-27, 1998 Third Annual Nat'l AA

Archives

Workshop and was very much alive in April 2002 when he received an award

from

the Nat'l Park System. This copyright 2005 article speaks of him in the



present

tense:
http://www.akronworldaffairs.org/newsletter/features/seiberling.html


Cursory Googleing shows nothing more recent and I am sure his demise would.
So rumors of his demise would seem to be greatly exaggerated.
___________________________
Bob,
Profuse apologies from the moderator for passing along some very inaccurate

information. I am glad, because I heard him speak in 1998, and he is a

really

fine man, whom I greatly admire.


At least you and Mel B. caught my goof before John read it! As you said in

your


Mark Twain quote in your last line, it would have been like the famous case

where Mark Twain (still very much alive) was amazed to read his own obituary

in

a newspaper.


My wife Sue once said to me, "The problem with you, Glenn, is that you

ARE right

93% of the time." I responded to her by saying, "No, the problem

with me is the

other 7% of the time, where I end up being the last person to figure it

out."
I always ask everyone in the fellowship (and also in the AAHistoryLovers) to

remember the 7% rule at all times when you're listening to me talk. Once

more


it has been proved to be a valuable warning indeed (grin).
Glenn Chesnut
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++++Message 3066. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Long Form of Second Tradition

From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/15/2006 3:21:00 PM


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I would be very interested to know where the recent contributor gained

the information that "Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do

not govern" is in the original (long) form of the Second Tradition, as

well as the original (long) form of the Ninth. On the Ninth there is

no doubt, but I really would like to see the evidence on the Second.

In the April 1946 Grapevine ("Twelve Suggested Points for AA

Tradition") the passage is not there. In "Traditions Stressed in

Memphis Talk" (October 1947 Grapevine) it is not there. In

"Tradition

Two" (January 1948 Grapevine) it is not there. In the form in

Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age (1958), which actually dates from

(roughly) 1950, it is not there. I have found no evidence for its

inclusion in Two until the so-called short form. In all these cases

mentioned (except of course for the write-up specifically on Tradition

Two), the phrase is in Tradition Nine, as we know. I am hoping this

contribution was not merely a guess. -- Jared Lobdell


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++++Message 3067. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Second Tradition (long and

short) - (and addenda)




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