Aa history Lovers 2006 moderators Nancy Olson and Glenn F. Chesnut page

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--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "mertonmm3"



If you look closely at his life you'll see that Bill formally divorced AA in



NOT WORK. Thats really what the sub-secret LSD papers at Stepping Stones


Its also what the enormous work he did on nicotinic acid aka niacin aka


B-3 and its effect on Alcoholism.
++++Message 3038. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Alcohol left in food after


From: Bob McK. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/8/2006 11:04:00 AM
I have saved an article titled "Food Science" published in Science

News v.

136 11/11/89 reporting on the annual meeting of the American Dietetic

Association in Kansas City, MO. It states in part:

"Though simmering a pot roast at 185 deg.F for 2 1/2 hours removed 95%


the red wine added, 25 minutes of baking at 375 deg.F retained 45% of the

dry sherry in scalloped oysters."
Other 'stics quoted are similar to the other article posted.
++++Message 3039. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Alcohol left in food after


From: Liz Barrett, True Function of Virtue . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/8/2006

5:36:00 PM

Thank you for this information. Just FYI: This data was initially

established by FDA research; a study was subsequently published in

the April 1992 edition of the Journal of the American Dietetic

Association (JADA). I was able to find the citation on PubMed, but

JADA issues prior to 1993 are not available online. If anyone would

like to read the study at a library, the citation is: J Am Diet

Assoc. 1992 Apr;92(4):486-8. The authors are: Augustin J, Augustin

E, Cutrufelli RL, Hagen SR, Teitzel C. [Department of Food Science

and Toxicology, Food Research Center, Moscow, ID 83843.]
-- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Doug B."



> I got this guide online:

> http://www.betterendings.org/Recipes/cookal.htm



> Cooking With Alcohol


> When cooking with beer or alcohol, does all of the alcohol



> No. The following chart should be helpful.


> PREPARATION METHOD / AlcoholRetained


> No heat application, immediate consumption 100%


> No heat application, overnight storage 70%


> Alcohol ingredient added to boiling liquid, and removed from heat



> Flamed 75%


> Baked, approximately 25 minutes, alcohol ingredient

> on surface of mixture (not stirred in) 45%


> Baked/simmered, alcohol ingredient stirred into mixture

> 15 minutes / 40%

> 30 minutes / 35%

> 1 hour / 25%

> 1.5 hours / 20%

> 2 hours / 10%

> 2.5 hours / 5%


> source: Minnesota Nutrition Council Newsletter


> What can I substitute if a recipe calls for beverages with alcohol?


> The best, but not always the easiest solution, is to find another


> without alcohol that will fill the need. If the beer or wine is a


> ingredient in your recipe, or if a large quantity is called for, it

> makes sense not to attempt a substitute. The results could be

> unpleasant. In such a case, look for another recipe.


> Often the alcohol required will be a small amount, such as a

couple of

> tablespoons, and in this case there are several substitutions:


> In recipes having plenty of seasonings, plan water may be


> Both the alcohol and a substitute may be omitted if the liquid


> needed for a gravy or sauce.


> When cooking with fish, an equal amount of bottled or fresh clam

or fish

> stock may be substituted. Just remember, bottled clam juice and


> fish stocks are high in salt. Some people use white grape juice


> fish.


> Other substitutes include chicken or beef broth


> Juice such as lemon, lime, apple or cranberry are all



> Reprinted from Fall 99 Issue Byerly's Bag



> Doug B.

++++Message 3040. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: DSM-IV definitions: Abuse vs.

Dependence (Alcoholism)

From: Jon Markle . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/8/2006 7:51:00 PM
That's a pretty wild claim.
Can you site the page and reference for this, please (using the DSM-IV-TR,


is the most current edition).
I've always used the two books as mutually complementary. I have never found

any incongruence between the two approaches with diagnostics or treatment

But, I'm willing to learn something new . . . .
> From: "Mitchell K."

> Reply-To:

> Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 15:15:01 -0800 (PST)

> To:

> Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] DSM-IV definitions: Abuse vs. Dependence

> (Alcoholism)


> PLEASE NOTE. If using the DSM IV as any sort of

> defining guideline for alcoholism one must remember

> the following: The DSM does state that a person can

> remain in total remission from alcohol dependence and

> continue drinking as long as they do not exhibit the

> criteria used for the diagnosis of dependence.

> Abstinence from the use of beverage alcohol does not

> define remission.... the lack of exhibiting the

> criteria does. If one uses Alcoholics Anonymous and

> the DSM in the same manner they are not congruent.


> From: Mitchell K.

> (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)
++++Message 3041. . . . . . . . . . . . Alcoholism and genetics

From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/2/2006 5:09:00 PM

At 12:49 1/2/2006 , Dave Smith wrote:


The vast majority of scientific evidence seems to say that alcoholism is

primarily a biogenetic inherited susceptibility. Physiologically alcoholics

metabolize alcohol and mind altering chemicals differently than 80 - 90% of

the population (in the United States,

I have seen this assertion many times over these last two decades, but I


never seen a citation from the scientific literature affirming it. Could

someone provide a citation?

Thanks for your post.
Tommy in Baton Rouge
++++Message 3042. . . . . . . . . . . . Sixth Tradition stories

From: Larry . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/5/2006 9:03:00 AM

Where might I find more about how the 6th Tradition of non-affiliation came


pass. Some of those stories in the 12 and 12 are pretty

Bill W. says "...most alcoholics are bankrupt idealists."

Does that phrase pop up anyplace else? Thanks, Larry in NM.

Tradition Six: "An A.A. group ought never endorse, finance, or lend the


name to any related facility or outside enterprise, lest problems of money,

property, and prestige divert us from our primary purpose."

++++Message 3043. . . . . . . . . . . . NCADD and ASAM

From: Rob White . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/9/2006 4:13:00 PM

No doubt the misinformation they put out is confusing to some people.

However, AA cannot have an opinion on it.

On the other hand, NCADD (the national council on alcoholism and drug

dependence) http://www.ncadd.org and ASAM (the American Society of Addiction

Medicine) composed of physicians dedicated to the field of Addiction


http://www.asam.org are the two lead organizations regarding public


and advocacy on alcoholism.
Their mission is to promote understanding of the illness and they have the


scientifically reliable statistics.
I suggest wherever possible to direct people to their websites.
There will always be whirling dervishes. Best thing to do is - let 'em

Rob W.

>>> ArtSheehan@msn.com 1/7/2006 7:02 PM >>>
Unfortunately, I believe there is a much more serious and

disconcerting side to James H and his affiliation as the poster child

for the "Back to Basics" (B2B) organization. B2B propagates

revisionist AA

history in a classic example of manufacturing an idyllic scenario portraying


AA program of Recovery in the "old days" and then manufacturing a


scenario bemoaning that "today" it's all different and has gone

downhill ....

++++Message 3044. . . . . . . . . . . . Second Tradition (long and short)

From: HJFree . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/10/2006 10:22:00 PM

Why is the "short version" of Tradition 2, longer than the long

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

++++Message 3045. . . . . . . . . . . . genetic models for alcoholism -

citations from scientific literature

From: dayatatime1950 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/10/2006 11:23:00 PM
Hi All -
The scientific literature abounds with research results regarding

the desease models for alcoholism. You can find excellent reviews

of these results written for general audiences in two books (both

available from Amazon.com):

Under the Influence : A Guide to the Myths and Realities of

Alcoholism (Paperback)by Milam and Ketchum

Beyond the Influence : Understanding and Defeating Alcoholism -- by

Katherine Ketcham, et al; Paperback by Ketchum et. al.

The second book is fairly recent and covers information reported

since the first book came out in the late 1970s. Neither qualifies

as a citation from the scientific literature but both are well

researched and cite leading references.

If you have access to a university library you might look at:
M. Heilig and M. Egli "Models for Alcohol Dependence: A Clinical

Perspective" in "Drug Discovery Today: Disease Models" Vol 2,


4, 2005.
I can provide this article as a pdf file to any interested members of

this group. It contains 45 citations to recent scientific

publications and will be a good starting point for anyone interested

in delving into the (voluminous) primary scientific literature

covering this subject.

Russ Hillard

(dayatatime1950 at yahoo.com)

++++Message 3046. . . . . . . . . . . . Harper Brothers printing of A.A.

Comes of Age ???

From: mr.grassroots . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/8/2006 11:29:00 PM
Hope this finds all well with everyone -
Just wondering if anyone has any information concerning the 1957

Harper Brothers printing of Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age?

Particularly trying to find out the number of these Harper's printings

and any other information concerning this effort.

Thany You in advance for your efforts on this search -
All the Best to You and Yours -


++++Message 3047. . . . . . . . . . . . James Houck and Bill at Maryland OG

House Parties

From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/10/2006 10:08:00 AM
From Jared L., Susan K., Bill H., Cheryl F., and Tommy H. -- comments on




From: "jlobdell54" (jlobdell54 at



While I hold no particular brief for James Houck and none for

BtoB, I should point out that Bill and Fitz did go to OG House Parties in MD

(including Frederick) certainly in 1935-36 and possibly 1936-1937.

But the trips they took began at Fitz's farm in Cumberstone,

and while Fitz's son remembered Bill coming down and Bill and Fitz

spending time together at the farm before they went off house-partying (Fitz


was 13-14 at the time), to the best of his knowledge no one named James


was ever at the house, nor did he ever hear the name.

He has vivid memories of Bill and Fitz playing fiddle and banjo

and singing in the parlor, with Bill singing Northern songs and Fitz

singing Southern songs.
He remembers Jim B and Jim's cousin Churchy --but no James Houck.
He could of course have attended House Parties where Bill and Fitz were


-- probably did -- but not with them in any strong sense of the word with.
-- Jared Lobdell


From: "Susan Krieger" (susank at qis.net)
James Houck came into the Baltimore AA office about 15 years ago or so. I

don't remember the exact year. His grandson is a member of AA. He wanted to

post his sobriety anniversary and would have made his sobriety older than

1935 or the beginning of AA. He said that he attended the Oxford Group. He

may have just started at that time to attend our local meetings. We would

not list his sobriety date to be older than AA. He has listed his name a

couple of times. I have had several calls about who was he. No one in this

area knew JH. I was at a Convention where in a count down he took away being

the oldest member of AA from our well known members. When he was in the

Office I asked him if he had ever had a drinking problem. His answer to me

was "I had an honesty problem."

Susan K.

From: billherold1017@aol.com (billherold1017 at aol.com)
My name is Bill H. from Area 29 Maryland.
As chairperson of the archives, I interviewed James Houck for ten hours. The

only real thing I got out of the interview is that he knew Bill W and Fitz

M. ( Our Southern Friend) from going to Oxford group meetings in Frederick,

Maryland. Bill would come down to Fitz's house outside of Annapolis and they


drive to Frederick, Maryland.

James Houck never mentioned a thing about being a recovering alcoholic in AA

and to my recollection of the tape, never attended AA His only claim to

fame is to be one of the only living people to know Bill and Fitz All he


about was the Oxford Group and he really did not have much real regard for

Bill H

From: "Cheryl F"

(learning3legacies at cox.net)

That friend of James Houck's is Wally and yes he is still alive and for what

it's worth there is a grievance file through GSO about those workshops.

From: Tommy H. (recoveredbygrace at


Several years ago I attended Wally`s Back to the Basics one day

workshop in Wilmington,NC.

James H. could not appear in person, but he did

address the crowd of around 100 AA men and women by

teleconference from the rest home he is staying at. I have never heard

James say he was an active member of AA, but I have heard him say he had

spoke in numerous one day workshops hosted by Wally P. Those workshops

were mostly attended by AA`s. I have copies of several tapes of some of

those talks. Those talk were given in several formats, including a

Christian Walk thru the steps of AA.

James seemed more interested in teaching others about Two Way Prayer

then talking about AA .

Tommy H.
++++Message 3048. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Green Pond, NJ

From: Rob . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/9/2006 7:02:00 AM

182 Clinton St

Brooklyn heights, NY

In response to Message 3032
From: "Russ S"

Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006

Subject: Green Pond, NJ
Dear History Lovers,
I live in a town 10 miles from Green Pond, New Jersey.
I would like to find the house Bill and Lois lived in before they moved to

Stepping Stones. Any suggestions on where to start?

Russ from Ogdensburg, NJ
++++Message 3049. . . . . . . . . . . . Crooked thinking

From: trixiebellaa . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/9/2006 8:50:00 AM

hi history lovers,
Page 140 of To Employers says: "Can it be appreciated that he has been

a victim of crooked thinking, directly caused by the action of alcohol

on his brain?"
One of our members asked why would Bill put such an important piece of

information in the chapter to employers,instead of perhaps one of the

chapters at the beginning of the book.
Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks from Tracy

The Barking Big Book Study Group

++++Message 3050. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Crooked thinking

From: Jay Lawyer . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/11/2006 11:16:00 AM

The thought and answer I come up with is 'because Henry P. wrote the chapter


----- Original Message -----

From: trixiebellaa

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 8:50 AM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Crooked thinking
hi history lovers,
Page 140 of To Employers says: "Can it be appreciated that he has been

a victim of crooked thinking, directly caused by the action of alcohol

on his brain?"
One of our members asked why would Bill put such an important piece of

information in the chapter to employers,instead of perhaps one of the

chapters at the beginning of the book.
Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks from Tracy

The Barking Big Book Study Group

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
++++Message 3051. . . . . . . . . . . . A better scientific citation

regarding Genetics of Alcoholism

From: dayatatime1950 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/11/2006 11:27:00 PM
Hi All -
I have had a lot of responses to my earlier posting regarding

scientific evidence of the genetics of alcoholism. As a result I have gone


to the literature and looked for a more seminal publication with a more


treatment. Truth be told, looking stuff up is kind of a hobby of mine.

Anyway, I have found:
"The genetics of alcoholism" Current Opinion in Genetics and

Development, Volume

8, Issue 3, June 1998, Pages 282-286

Alison M Goate and Howard J Edenberg

Again, I can supply anyone who is interested with a pdf file of this

article if you will write to me direct at:

(dayatatime1950 at yahoo.com)
It is much more readable than the other article I cited

previously. In it the authors state "evidence from twin, adoption and


stuides suggest alcoholism is a complex trait resulting from the action of

multiple interacting genes and the environment". They go on to describe


to identify the specific genes that are associated with alcoholism in


Some progress has been made

toward this goal.

Russ Hillard
++++Message 3052. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: DSM-IV definitions: Abuse vs.

Dependence (Alcoholism)

From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/14/2006 10:23:00 AM
Sorry it took so long to reply....

Page 180 under Substance-Related Disorders in DSM IV -

TR version is the same but I'm not sure if the page #

is the same): (DSM IV TR web link =

Early Full Remission - This specifier is used if, for

at least 1 month, but for less than 12 months, no

CRITERIA for Dependence or Abuse have been met

(emphasis added)

Sustained Full Remission - This specifier is used if

none of the CRITERIA for Dependence or Abuse have been

met at any time during the period of 12 months or

longer (emphasis added)

The DSM is not concerned about drinking or not

drinking. It relates to meeting the specific criteria

for dependence or abuse. It's not anything new....APA

is not about abstinence as a criteria.

> That's a pretty wild claim.


> Can you site the page and reference for this, please

> (using the DSM-IV-TR, which is the most current

> edition).


> I've always used the two books as mutually

> complementary. I have never found any incongruence

> between the two approaches with diagnostics or

> treatment approaches.


> But, I'm willing to learn something new . . . .

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