Aa history Lovers 2006 moderators Nancy Olson and Glenn F. Chesnut page



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wrote:

> > > hi history lovers,

> > >

> > > Page 140 of To Employers says: "Can it be



> > appreciated that he has

> > > been

> > > a victim of crooked thinking, directly caused by

> > the action of

> > alcohol

> > >


> > > on his brain?"

> > >


> > > One of our members asked why would Bill put such

> > an important piece

> > of

> > >


> > > information in the chapter to employers,instead of

> > perhaps one of

> > the

> > > chapters at the beginning of the book.



> > >

> > > Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

> > >

> > > Thanks from Tracy



> > > The Barking Big Book Study Group

> > > England

> > >

> > >


> > >

> > >


> > >

> > >


> > >

> > >


> > > SPONSORED LINKS

> > > Addiction recovery program Recovery from

> > addiction

> > > Addiction recovery center Christian addiction

> > recovery

> > > Alcoholics anonymous

> > >

> > > ---------------------------------



> > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

> > >


> > >

> > > Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web.

> > >

> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email



> > to:

> > > AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

> > >

> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the



> > Yahoo! Terms of

> > > Service.

> > >

> > >


> > > ---------------------------------

> > >


> > >

> > >


> > >

> > >


> > > ---------------------------------

> > > Yahoo! Mail

> > > Use Photomail to share photos without annoying

> > attachments.

> > >

> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been



> > removed]

> > >


> > >

> > >


> > >

> > >


> > >

> > > Yahoo! Groups Links

> > >

> >


> >

> >


> >

> >


> >

> >


> >

>
Yahoo! Groups Links


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++++Message 3285. . . . . . . . . . . . about poker chips

From: Jari Kokkinen . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/23/2006 12:36:00 PM


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Hi everyone!
must tell you about an incident that relates to poker chips. About a year

ago


I saw

the film "Sting" and in it the players in a poker game used chips

that had the

symbols


of AA - the circle inside the triangle on their reverse side. I wonder if

anybody would have any comments clarifying that coincidence or would just

have

noticed the same thing?


In Sobriety,
Jari - an AA from Finland
---------------------------------

To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo!

Security Centre.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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++++Message 3286. . . . . . . . . . . . To Employers and Wives (was:

authorship ...)

From: ny-aa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/24/2006 11:11:00 AM
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Let me go back to one of the original questions of why the Big Book puts

"important information" in chapters To Wives and To Employers

instead

of at the "front of the book." The title of a chapter does not



imply its

sole intended audience. Should alcoholics who don't consider themselves

to be agnostics skip the We Agnostics chapter? These chapters give the

alcoholic reader a chance to see alcoholism from a different point of

view.
Bill overheard Dr. Silkworth tell Lois what would happen if Bill continued

drinking. This caught his attention. Anonymous Number Three overheard Bill

say to Dr. Bob, "Well, I believe he's worth saving and working

on." Often

what we overhear about ourselves has more impact than what is said directly

to us.
And, of course, the Stories section contains "our personal adventures

before and after." There is "important information" there

too.
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++++Message 3287. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W. - One Man''s Story -

Recording Information Sought

From: Mike and Sarah . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/23/2006 12:11:00 PM
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3-23-06
About 'One Man's Story' -
It's from the 1960 25th Anniversary of AA, 3rd International Convention

held at Long Beach California.


Mike
-----Original Message-----

>From: Steve Leeds

>Sent: Mar 20, 2006 8:35 AM

>To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

>Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Bill W. - One Man's Story - Recording

Information

Sought

>

>Hey All,



>

>I recently got a copy of a recording that had no information with it

>other than the title "One Man's Story"

>

>Here's a few things that might help:



>

>West Coast

>Outside

>Bill thanks a Mayor

>Lois speaks early in the tape

>Ebby Speaks early

>Bill makes reference to it being the Sunrise of AA

>

>Thanks,



>Steven

>

>



>

>

>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



>

>

>



>

>

>



>Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>



>

>

>



>
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++++Message 3288. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: authorship of Chapter

10/Openmindedness

From: johnlawlee . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/24/2006 10:36:00 AM
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Art:

Text comparison is not an "obscure hypothesis." Text comparison

is the primary method used by historians to resolve disputes in

authorship and authenticity. Witness the current trial going on in

London over the borrowed language in the DaVinci Code novel. Text

comparison is used to determine the source of writings, be they those

of Mozart, Hemingway, or the Dead Sea Scrolls.

The claim that Hank Parkhurst authored Chapter 10 of the Big

Book is an AA myth. The myth was initiated by the boastings of Hank,

and perpetuated by the anti=Bill Wilson faction of AA.

There are many myths in the AA Conference-approved literature.

Doctor Bob did not have his last drink on June 10th. Herbert Spencer

did not author the quote attributed to him in the Spiritual

Experience Appendix. William James never indicated that the

educational variety of spiritual experience "develop[s] slowly",

as

claimed in Appendix I of the Big Book.



Hank's story in the first edition big book is an incohesive

mess. It represents Hank's view of his own alcoholism, and was

written in the exact time period that Bill Wilson was dictating the

first eleven chapters of the Big Book. "The Unbeliever" is

rambling,

choppy and laughably melodramatic. It's a bunch of phrasings strung

together in no particular order, punctuated by constant ellipses,

exclamation points and question marks. As I've indicated in my two

previous postings, there is no language/terms/style in Hank's story

similar to the language/terms/style of Chapter 10 ["To

Employers"].

The person who wrote "The Unbeliever" was incapable of writing the

cohesive, integrated message set forth in "To Employers".

Your reliance on Pass It On is misplaced. That book, published

in 1984, only says that there is "some reason to believe"...that

Chapter 10 "may" have been written by Hank. That's hardly a

ringing

endorsement of authorship by Hank P. Let's look at a PRIMARY source,



to wit, Bill Wilson's signed Forward at the front of "As Bill Sees

It" [originally called "The AA Way Of Life"]. Bill's Forward,

dated

April 1967, asserts that it has been his "privilege to write the



following: the text of Alcoholic Anonymous..." There...that should

be the end of this discussion. Wilson does not accredit Hank with

authorship of any part of the basic text. Bill is a PRIMARY source.

The statement of authorship was made and signed by the author, in a

conference approved publication.

The myth that Hank wrote Chapter 10 is based on second or third

hand impressions of those familiar with Hank's boasting. Hank was a

big idea guy. He was not a writer of any merit. He was a sales

manager, not a writer. Bill Wilson was not a "good" writer, but he

was a precise writer who composed chapters that were cohesive and

related to each other. It is unfortunate that the interviewer of Ruth

Hock did not ask Ruth for any details about

the writing of Chapter 10, which details could confirm Hank's

participation in the writing of that Chapter. Ruth is a good source

for information on the drafting of the Big Book. It would have been

most helpful if Ruth had said, "Yes. I'll never forget that rainy

Monday morning Hank got into the office early, with a sheaf of

handwritten notes about our book. Bill was so relieved, because we

had been waiting weeks for Hank to finish his chapter, so we could

send the manuscript to the groups."

What do I think happened? Hank lobbied for the assignment of

writing the chapter "To Employers"; however, Hank never got around

to

actually writing the chapter. Tired of waiting for Hank's



contribution, Bill wrote Chapter 10 himself, and sent out the

manuscript. Hank subsequently claimed credit for Chapter 10 to anyone

who would listen. Hank's confabulation became an AA myth. Bill Wilson

acquiesced to the myth. By 1967, there was no longer any reason for

Bill to carry the myth. Bill publically re-established his authorship

in the Forward to As Bill Sees It in 1967.

In fairness to Hank, the Big Book would have never been

published without Hank's efforts. I suspect the whole idea of a

basic text was Hank's idea rather than Bill's. Hank stood elbow-to-

elbow with Bill for months while Bill dictated the basic text to

Ruth. I'm sure Hank's ideas were constantly being injected into the

basic text as it was being drafted. Hank just didn't do the actual

drafting, dictating or composing. He was a talker, an idea guy.

Hank was an unstable man. He made wild claims that he hadn't

been paid for his office furniture, and that the records and accounts

of Works Publishing had been stolen. Hank made trips to Ohio to

undermine Bill Wilson. Bill displayed continuing forbearance towards

Hank, and towards Bill's antagonists in Ohio.

In summary, there is no language in the First Edition to suggest

that Hank wrote Chapter 10. That myth is based on Hank's bald claims

of authorship. A conference approved Forward from Bill Wilson in 1967

confirms that Bill wrote the text of the Big Book.

Pass it on.

johm lee


pittsburgh
>

> Hi John

>

> In this forum, if we are to be true propagating history, then we



> should impose upon ourselves the discipline of sticking to articles

of

> fact rather than articles of faith or speculation. Otherwise debate



> and editorials take precedence over historical reporting.

>

> Please refer to "Pass It On" (page 200) which states



"Bill wrote at

> least ten of the opening chapters of the book; there is some reason

to

> believe that "To Employers" may have been written by



Hank." This

> Conference-approved book, was published in 1984.

>

> A member of this forum is its primary author of "pass It On."



If the

> statement in the book did not have merit, it would have been excised

> some time ago. Mitchell K, also an author, relayed information he

> received through testimonial from Ruth Hock (a first person

observer).

> Merton M, a member of this forum, is researching a comprehensive

> history of AA in New Jersey (which was started by Hank P). Merton

also


> attributes authorship of "To Employers" to Hank P based on

his


> research (and he is a bit of a stickler for accurate details).

>

> All you offer in rebuttal is a rather obscure hypothesis that since



> the style and content of Hank's Big Book story are different than

the


> chapter "To Employers" that excludes Hank from authoring the

chapter.


>

> There is no compelling reason why the styles of these two items

should

> be identical or even similar. Hank also wrote a prospectus for the



Big

> Book whose style is altogether different than his story. The

> prospectus is quite well structured, precise and cogent.

>

> Hank was previously a Vice-president for Standard Oil and would have



> been eminently qualified to write the chapter from the perspective

of

> an employer. It was a type of experience that Bill didn't have



> (although Bill wasn't a wife either but wrote the chapter "To

Wives").


>

> The idea that Bill only wrote the first paragraph of "To

Employers"

in

> no way detracts from or diminishes his role in the overall



production

> of the Big Book. Bill's methodology for writing the Big Book

chapters

> was for him to develop an outline of the chapters on a yellow legal

> pad and then later dictate narrative details to Ruth Hock to type up

> drafts.

>

> The drafts were then presented to NY, Akron and Cleveland members



for

> editing and changes. The consistency of terminology and style among

> the chapters was a function of membership review not of Bill's

writing


> style, personal preferences or attention to detail.

>

> The Big Book is unique in that it is the only literary work in AA



> where everyone who was a member at the time (1938-1939) had an

> opportunity to directly contribute to shaping both the wording and

> style of the book. This also included non-alcoholic friends of AA:

>

> 1. Dr Silkworth wrote a letter of support for AA for use in



> fundraising for the book. The letter, and additional narrative from

Dr

> Silkworth, were incorporated into the chapter "The Doctor's



Opinion."

>

> 2. 28 members submitted their stories for the book. These stories,



> then and today, make up a substantial and very important portion of

> the Big Book (notwithstanding the tiresome "first 164 pages"

mantra

> that circulates within AA).



>

> 3. Jim B (whose story is "Vicious Cycle") suggested the

phrases "God

> as we understand Him" and "Power greater than ourselves"

be added to

> the Steps and basic text.

>

> 4. A psychiatrist "Dr Howard" (an alias) caused the whole



tone of

the


> book to be changed from "must" to "should" or

"ought."


>

> 5. Tom Uzzell, a friend of Hank P, an editor at Collier's and a

member

> of the NYU faculty, edited the manuscript which was variously



> estimated as 600-800 pages (including personal stories). Uzzell

> reduced it to approximately 400 pages. Most cuts came from the

> personal stories, which had also been edited by Jim S of Akron and

> Bill W and Hank P in NY.

>

> The Big Book is a product of informed group conscience and, as a



> consequence, it turned out to be a very remarkable product. By his

own


> admission, Bill wrote that his role eventually changed from one of

> primary author to umpire.

>

> Cheers


> Arthur

>

> -----Original Message-----



> From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

> [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of johnlawlee

> Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 5:40 PM

> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: authorship of Chapter 10

>

> --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Mitchell K."



> wrote:

> >


> Mitchell:

> I stand by my earlier posting. The person who wrote

> "The Unbeliever" is not the person who wrote "To

Employers".

> There is absolutely no overlap between the two, although they

> were both written in 1938 or early 1939. I don't believe you can

> point to a single phrase in "The Unbeliever" which supplies

> language/terms/style similar to that found in "To Employers";

for

> that matter, there is no language or phrasing in "The



Unbeliever"

> which is similar to language or phrasing in any part of the Big

Book.

> "The Unbeliever" is a farrago, a confused mess...staccato,



almost

> hallucinatory style. "The Unbeliever" was not written by the

person

> who wrote Chapter 10. On the other hand, every paragraph of Chapter



> 10 contains phrases found in other chapters of the basic text. As

> just one example, out of dozens I could give, pages 143-44 of

Chapter

> 10 talk about the "subject matter" of this book. "It



contains full

> suggestions by which the employee may solve his problem." Compare

143-

> 44 with the similar language found on page 45 of the earlier



Chapter

> 4, about the "main object" of the book ["to find a

Power...which

will


> solve your problem"]. I'd be happy to go over Chapter 10 with you,

> line by line, and point out where phrases from Chapter 10 are used

> identically, elsewhere in the Big Book. The person who wrote

Chapter


> 10 borrowed heavily from the other ten chapters of the Big Book.

> It defies belief that Hank wrote Chapter 10 in isolation. If Hank

did

> in fact compose Chapter 10, he was a liberal plagiarist who copied



> Bill Wilson's exact language and writing style. Hank would have

also


> completely changed his writing style and language in a six month

> period,and discarded all his ideas from his own story. The better

> view is that all eleven chapters of the Big Book were drafted by

the


> same person. They were not written at all by the person who

> authored "The Unbeliever".

> I have no doubt that Hank claimed in Hank's correspondence that

Hank


> authored Chapter 10. In a similar vein, Ebby Thatcher loved to

refer


> to himself as a "founder" of AA. I have no doubt that Hank's

one-


> time brother-in law, Clarence S., gave Hank credit for Chapter 10.

I

> have no doubt that Hank's ideas made their way into Chapter 10.



Hank

> was a former Standard Oil executive, who shared a small office in

> Newark with Bill Wilson and Ruth Hock. Bill Wilson composed

Chapters


> 1 through 11, no doubt running ideas past Hank in their office

every


> day. Bill Wilson gave Hank credit for Chapter 10, even though Bill

> had done the writing.

> In summary, it should be undisputed that Bill Wilson was the author

> [the "principal" author, if you prefer] of Chapters 1 through

11.

> There is nothing in Hank's first edition story to suggest that Hank



> composed Chapter 10. Although Bill had some character defects,

> hugging credit was not one of them. Bill publically praised William

> James, Sam Shoemaker and Ebby Thatcher as "founders" of AA.

It

should



> not be surprising that Bill would be equally modest in allowing

Hank


> to take credit for Chapter 10.

> love+service

> john lee

> pittsburgh

>

>

> > If one just takes a written story published in the Big



> > Book as the only example of Hank's writing style it is

> > not doing diligent service to historical research.

> > There are several letters written by Hank and other

> > documents, including oral histories which give

> > authorship of that chapter (Employers) to Hank. I wish

> > I had a tape recorder at the time but Ruth told me

> > Hank was the author when I asked her at Stepping

> > Stones. Merton's research, my conversations with Ruth,

> > Clarence and others as well as my reading several

> > letters and other documents written by Hank lead me to

> > believe Hank was the author.

> >


> >

> >


> > --- johnlawlee wrote:

> >


> > > --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,

"ArtSheehan"

> > >

> > > wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Bill didn't write the chapter "To Employers"



(just

> > > the first

> > > > paragraph). Hank P wrote the chapter.

> > > >


> > > > I don't get a sense that the Big Book was written

> > > in the manner or

> > > > with the intent that is often presumed in

> > > analyzing it (perhaps

> > > > over-analyzing it might be a better way of putting

> > > it).

> > > >

> > > > The member who asked the question is using a form



> > > of reasoning that

> > > > appears sincere, but flawed in its analytical

> > > gymnastics. It does

> > > > little more than open the door to what can be an

> > > endless amount of

> > > > speculation that serves more to distract rather

> > > than inform.

> > > >


> > > > Many Big Book chapters have a specific target

> > > audience (usually

> > > > denoted in the chapter titles). In this case it's

> > > employers.

> > > >

> > > > The underlying assumption that the importance of a



> > > sentence is

> > > somehow

> > > > enhanced or diminished by its appearance in an

> > > early or later part

> > > of

> > > > the book is a flawed assumption being treated as

> > > fact.

> > > >


> > > > The most popular, and perhaps important, portion

> > > of the Big Book,

> > > read

> > > > at many meetings comes from its 5th chapter "How

> > > It Works." Trust

> > > me,

> > > > there is no need to move this chapter further

> > > toward the beginning

> > > of

> > > > the book to emphasize its importance. It stands on

> > > its own content

> > > as


> > > > do all the other chapters.

> > > >


> > > > Cheers

> > > > Arthur

> > > >

> > > > -----Original Message-----



> > > > From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

> > > > [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf

> > > Of Charlene C.

> > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 12:57 PM

> > > > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

> > > > Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Crooked thinking

> > > >

> > > > it would be my guess that employers are more



> > > inclined to think in

> > > > intellectual terms than medical or spiritual.

> > > especially in that

> > > > time, when alcoholism was considered more of a

> > > moral dilema than a

> > > > spiritual mallody or terminal illness.

> > > >

> > > > just a thought.



> > > > C. Cook

> > > >


> > > > Hank Parkhurst is generally cited as the author of

> > >


> > > "To Employers" [Chapter 10 of Big Book]. I've

always


> > > found that hard

> > > to believe, based on the contrast between the

> > > divergent styles of

> > > Chapter 10 and Hank's story in the First Edition.

> > > Hank's story, "The

> > > Unbeliever" is choppy, almost manic. It's filled

> > > with

> > > elipses,exclamations, etc. I've always suspected

> > > that Bill Wilson did

> > > the actual writing of Chapter 10, although Hank

> > > supplied many of the

> > > ideas for Chapter 10. Bill, Hank and Ruth Hock

> > > shared a small office

> > > in Newark when they put together the Big Book. I

> > > don't see any

> > > language in Hank's story which is similar to the

> > > content or style of

> > > Chapter 10. Bill was very generous in giving credit

> > > for the

> > > contributions of others; for instance, Bill referred

> > > to William James

> > > as a "founder" of AA, even though Professor James

> > > had been dead for

> > > decades when AA was founded.

> > > The authors of Chapter 10 are laying out a big order

> > > for employers.

> > > They're asking employers to read the Big Book and

> > > use it to "12 step"

> > > their employees. I don't see any information in

> > > Chapter 10 which is

> > > inconsistent with the first five chapters. The

> > > intended audience was

> > > different. It's not a different message.

> > > john lee

> > > member

> > > pittsburgh

> > > > trixiebellaa




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