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has March 1937 as Florence R's dos, confirming the above. However, it is

not a primary source and confirmation via the questionnaire on file at GSO

would certainly be a better source.
I come up against the "God said it. I believe it. That settles


argument frequently. It is along the lines of, "My sponsor conducts Big

Book studies all over the country. He has brought the Big Book alive for

hundreds of people making their lives better. How can you say he is

wrong?" This is an argument from authority, and I can see its fallacies

but we deal with so much subjective and emotional reasoning, facts from

primary sources are often ridiculed and rejected. How does one deal with

Tommy H in Baton Rouge
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
++++Message 3154. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W''s writings on Vitamin B

From: JOHN e REID . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/11/2006 7:56:00 PM

I have, somewhere, a hard copy of Bill W's writings to the Medical

Profession on

Vitamin B and its benefits to alcoholics. However, I am not sure as to where

this had copy is. However, I am sure that by now, these very informative and

interesting studies would be stored, electronically.Could someone please


me with an electronic copy.
Having "found" my first Sponsor (Broken Hill Jack who I knew all

my life and

walked with me for 29 years until he died July 1, 2001) virtually day dot,

having "done" my first 4 and 5th Step (from the Big Book) when I

was less than 3

months sober, having been involved in the 3rd Steps Meeting in Australia,


1st Big Book Study Groups (under direct and personal guidance from Wesley

Parrish), the first Beginners Group, 1st Sponsorship Workshop, 1 st


Workshops, 1 st Workshops on the Four Absolutes, etc., I am not suggesting

against anything to do with "structured Recovery process" (not

necessarily AA

jargon). However, I came into AA before "Living Sober" was put

Based on my own practical experience, of getting well physically from a

shivering, shaking mess, sufficiently enough to have the bodily capacity and

mental willingness to develop spiritually, I believe every newie would


from being issued with a copy of "Living Sober" along with their

local Meetings

list plus Members phone number, as their first hard copy collection of AA

material. I have been taking B vitamins for over 33 years, as was suggested


me and as was the case for many many Oldtimers who showed me the

"way" which

included the physical and mental as well as the spiritual. While Broken Hill

Jack "took me" straight to the Serenity Prayer, at our first

outing, he also

suggested that I put the Vitamin B next to the salt and pepper shaker, so

as I

would not forget to take it every morning. Broken Hill Jack also explained


will not go into his explanations now) why alcoholics like him and I need

Vitamin B. In fact when Bill was told to stop shouting from "spiritual

hilltops", it was suggested that he stress the (physically and perhaps


hopelessness of the disease.

Pray God, as I "get well????", help me not to forget that it is a

Three Fold


Kind Regards, John R

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
++++Message 3155. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First lesbian or gay AA member?

From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/11/2006 9:31:00 PM

Hi All,

I interviewed Barry L. by telephone and obtained the story about the

homosexual black man who had contacted Barry about coming into AA. This is

how it became included in "Pass It On." I think this happened in

1945. I

don't recall any mention of how the man fared after being introduced to the


I had met Barry at G.S.O. in New York and considered him a good friend.

We never discussed his being gay, but I do recall expressing condolences

when his partner died. I also attended Marty Mann's memorial services at

St. Bartholomew's Episcopal Church in New York City with Barry and a lesbian

member who knew Marty. The service was conducted by the minister of the

church and Yvelin G., who was an ordained Episcopal minister along with

being Marty's close associate for many years at the National Council on

Alcoholism. This service was about two months after Marty's passing. I had

interviewed Marty earlier that year at her home in Easton, CT, where she

also introduced me to her longtime partner, Priscilla Peck. Priscilla was

then suffering from Alzheimer's but Marty was still taking care of her, and

I had the feeling that they were a very devoted couple. I learned more

about their relationship in the Browns' book and was also happy to hear that

Priscilla was well taken care of after Marty died.

It appeared to me that Lois W.'s best friends in the fellowship were

Barry and Nell Wing (though Nell wasn't an alcoholic). Barry accompanied

Lois on out-of-town speaking engagements and was otherwise very attentive to

her. I believed that Barry was probably in her will, as was Nell, but he

predeceased Lois.

I was also familiar with Barry's efforts to obtain extra compensation for

his work on "Living Sober." Lois reportedly endorsed this effort.

I didn't

feel he had any grounds for receiving additional pay, as he had taken on the

project on a work-for-hire basis with no royalties specified. He used Bill

W.'s royalties as a precedent, but I'm sure Bill negotiated the royalty

agreement up front when he wrote "The Twelve and Twelve" plus

"AA Comes of

Age." His Big Book royalties were agreed upon earlier. I think Barry


before this matter was finally settled.

Mel Barger

++++Message 3156. . . . . . . . . . . . Experience, strength, and hope

From: Penny . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/12/2006 3:14:00 AM

Where did the phrase share our experience, strength

and hope come from?

In love and sobriety

Penny Morrison DOS 8-18-00

Roanoke Virginia
Change only happens when the pain of hanging on is

greater than the fear of letting go!

Never assume some one knows you love them,

take the time to tell them.

++++Message 3157. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: First woman was Jane S., not


From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/12/2006 9:29:00 AM
I agree that a reasonable period of dry time should be a factor as

opposed to just when someone might have first showed up. Bill and Bob

had two unsuccessful Akron, OH prospects (Dr McK and Eddie R) prior to

Bill D being dubbed "AA #3." Plus there was the legendary

Using the 1-year criterion would favor Florence R for primacy and my

vote goes to Florence.

Jane S (presumed to be from Cleveland) predated Clarence S (the

acknowledged Cleveland pioneer) by a year yet she is not recalled in

Mitchell K's biography of Clarence S (based on interviews with

Clarence). So I just don't know where Jane S fits other than being

mentioned in "Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers" along with


Message 3142 from:

Tom Hickcox

(cometkazie1 at cox.net)

Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers]

First woman was Jane S., not Florence
Perhaps if we could agree on a question first, then

it could be addressed. The question could be, "Who

was the first woman working the program of what

became Alcoholics Anonymous to attain a year's

++++Message 3158. . . . . . . . . . . . "burning desire"

From: hesofine2day . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/6/2006 4:47:00 PM

I have an idea that many of the expressions and

conventions in AA these days have seeped in from

NA and/or treatment centers.
Does anyone know the origin of "Does anyone have

a burning desire?" at the end of a meeting?

Also where did the expression "do the next right

thing" come from?

And finally saying "It works if you work it" after

the Lord's prayer.

From the moderator:
Raymond I., who shows up in my book about

old time AA in northern Indiana

(see http://hindsfoot.org/kfoc1.html)

frequently tells newcomers "you must want it with

a burning desire." He says he didn't make up

this phrase, but that it was something that other

people also said back in the old days.
"Old time" is relative.
Raymond came into the program in 1974, but was

trained by the old-time black AA members who came

into South Bend AA in the 1940's. He doesn't talk

treatment jargon or use the jazzy NA phrases that

everybody chants at the end of their meetings.
So I think that in the form "you must want it with

a burning desire," the words go back to a period

before all the psychobabble and high school

cheerleading type stuff.

The great heyday of the treatment centers funded

by insurance money ran from the mid 1980's to

the mid 1990's approximately, so anything prior

to the mid 1980's is probably not coming from

that source.
But can anybody trace "you must want it with a

burning desire" back before the 1970's?

"Modern AA" and "old time AA" are both relative

terms, and in the earliest years, 1936 is very

different from 1938, 1939 is very different from

1941, and 1946 is very different from 1948 or

1949. The 1960's were very different from the

1950's. AA was going through continuous change

and development during that whole period. But

it was working effectively and continuing to

grow and expand at an enormous rate.
Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)
++++Message 3159. . . . . . . . . . . . Women in AA: "Gertrude" and Rev.


From: sbanker914@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/5/2006 7:16:00 AM
Dear Art,
I've been a member of AAHistoryLovers for a long time and enjoy the list

very much.

Many years ago -- maybe 16 or so -- an audio tape was slipped into a

purchase of books I had made in a spiritual bookshop in NYC (long gone). It


out to be a wonderful talk by a woman named "Gertrude" to a group


Episcopal church women, in Chicago, I think. I don't remember specifics of



very well, but I'll never forget Gertrude. She was more than middle aged

when she made the tape and she had been sober a long time. She knew Dr.

Shoemaker and I think was a member of his congregation. Most vividly I

remember her

telling of the years she had lived in a house in Santa Fe which she had

filled up with needy women in early recovery.

I wish I had copied the tape, but I didn't. I passed it along to another

recovering woman.

I wonder if anyone else ever heard that tape or remembers Gertrude.
Susan Banker

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

++++Message 3160. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W''s writings on Vitamin B

From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2006 7:45:00 AM

If no one else can find a hard copy, mine went with my other research

materials to the Kirk Collection at Brown University. I trust it could

be easily available: even though they have not yet sorted all my

materials, the printed one's are indexed as to location (I think). If

interested, contact David_Lewis@brown.edu or perhaps better,


ernie k.
++++Message 3161. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: 1948 and 1950 Statement of


From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2006 8:37:00 AM
I guess that when a second printing is done of How It

Worked I'll have o include all of Royal Shepard's

letters and all of Henrietta Seiberling's letters

relating to both Bill and the Statement of 1948.

I prefer using actual documentation from the period in

question rather than sanitized and committee reviewed

official literature written and published years beyond

the actual events. Clarence was merely a part of the

Orthodox Group/Movement and not the founding member.

The documentation and not the apologists bear that

--- ArtSheehan wrote:
> Hi Shakey - this is a long reply


> The information you seek is qualified in the source

> book as "according

> to Clarence" or "Clarence believed." Clarence did

> much for which he

> should be complimented, but he also had another side

> that is not very

> complementary. I'd suggest that Clarence S was to

> Bill W what Al Gore

> is to George Bush today. No matter what the subject,

> it will be

> interpreted in a sinister manner. This is not to say

> that anyone is

> lying, rather it is what bias and antagonism

> produce.


> The unpublished manuscript of Bob P contains the

> excerpts below which

> are revealing. They are, for the most part

> independently, confirmed by

> other authors in "Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers" and

> "Pass It On."


> Chapter 1 - When AA "Came of AGE"


> All was not harmony within the Fellowship, however,

> which accounted

> for a smaller-than-expected attendance at the St.

> Louis Convention. AA

> had grown up in two places simultaneously - Akron

> and New York, each

> with its own co-founder. So it is not surprising

> that there was a

> feeling of separateness - some would say a schism -

> between the

> Akron/Cleveland axis and the New York axis. The

> Akronites had clung

> longer to the Oxford Groups and were more

> conservative generally.

> Bill, the visionary, on the other hand pushed ahead

> with the writing

> and publishing of the Big Book, the establishing of

> a "Headquarters"

> office and, in the late 1940s, a plan for a General

> Service

> Conference.


> Dissent against this idea was led by Clarence S of

> Cleveland. With the

> help of Henrietta Seiberling (who now lived in New

> York), an "Orthodox

> Group" was formed to mobilize opposition to the

> Conference plan among

> AA groups nationwide. They took pride in the fact

> they would have

> nothing to do with Bill W, the "Headquarters" office

> or any form of

> organization of AA. Their most vigorous efforts took

> place after the

> first trial conference was held in 1951. The groups

> and members with

> the "Orthodox Group" view chose, not surprisingly,

> to boycott the St.

> Louis gathering where the Conference idea was to be

> ratified.


> Chapter 2 - The General service Board


> ... in 1946, Bill submitted to the trustees a "Code of

> Traditions for

> General Headquarters," and followed it up with a

> barrage of memoranda

> supporting its various points. These included ideas

> for fiscal

> policies, and specifically the creation of a sound

> reserve fund; the

> place of The AA Grapevine in the structure; and

> staff representation

> at the Board and committee meetings, with a voice in

> policy decisions.

> A 1947 memo added the most controversial proposal of

> all, that of

> having a General Service Conference to provide a

> linkage between the

> groups and the trustees as well as the headquarters

> office; and to

> bring the trustees into regular contact and direct

> relationship with

> the society.


> The Board's reaction was at first defensive and then

> outright negative

> to Bill's suggestions. Most of the trustees wanted

> to keep the status

> quo. They were confident of their ability to handle

> whatever situation

> might arise and saw no need to change. Bill, spurred

> into greater

> urgency by Dr Bob's illness and feeling personal

> frustration, pressed

> harder, resulting in hot and bitter debates. As Nell

> recounts, "Bill

> felt they wanted him to be only a spiritual symbol,

> confined to a kind

> of ivory tower where he couldn't stir things up."

> The trustees

> resented Bill's over-aggressiveness.


> Bill himself confesses, "Typically alcoholic, I

> turned passive

> resistance into solid opposition. A serious rift

> developed between me

> and the alcoholic members of the Board, and the

> situation became worse

> and worse. They resented my sledgehammer tactics. As

> the tempest

> increased, so did my blistering memorandums. One of

> them was an

> amazing composition which finished with this

> astonishing sentence:

> 'When I was in law school, the largest book I

> studied was one on

> trusts. I must say, gentlemen, that it was mostly a

> long and

> melancholy account of the malfeasances and

> misfeasances of boards of

> trustees.' I had written this to the best friends I

> had in the world,

> people who had devoted themselves to AA and to me

> without stint.

> Obviously I was on a dry bender of the worst

> possible sort.


> This sizzling memorandum nearly blew the Foundation

> apart." The

> nonalcoholic trustees were "dumbfounded," and the

> old-timer alcoholic

> trustees hardened their opposition to the Conference

> plan. Four of the

> trustees even submitted letters of resignation; they

> were: LeRoy

> Chipman, Leonard Harrison, Bernard Smith and Horace

> C. Bill wrote each

> of them a conciliatory letter of apology, and the

> resignations were

> either withdrawn or simply not accepted at the next

> Board meeting.


> In fact, the only support on the Board for the

> Conference was from

> Bernard Smith. However, as the dispute wore on into

> 1950, Chairman

> Leonard Harrison - even though he did not see the

> necessity for a

> Conference - appointed a trustees' committee to

> study the matter with

> Bernard Smith as Chairman! Bill characterized this

> as "a most

> magnanimous and generous act on Leonard's part. Bern

> Smith had "a

> remarkable faculty for persuasion and negotiation."

> It took him only

> two meetings to convince the committee to "give the

> Conference a try."

> The full Board voted to go along. (See Chapter 11

> for a fuller history

> of the Conference.)


> Chapter 3 - Groups in the US: How They Began and How

> They Grew

> East Central Region - Akron, Cleveland and Ohio


> The members of the new Cleveland group were

> uncertain what to call

> themselves and discussed several suggested names.

> "None of them seemed

> fitting," remembered Abby C, "so we began to refer

> to ourselves "as

> Alcoholics Anonymous" after the title of the Big

> Book.


> (On this tenuous fact Clarence S based a lifelong

> claim that he was,

> in reality, the founder of Alcoholics Anonymous. He

> became perhaps the

> most controversial character in AA. He turned

> against Bill and aroused

> the Cleveland contingent to accuse Bill and Dr Bob

> of "getting rich"

> off the Big Book and the generosity of Mr.

> Rockefeller - which they

> had to disprove with a certified audit of their

> financial affairs.

> Clarence tried to organize a nationwide revolt

> against the Conference

> idea and threatened, unsuccessfully, to secede. He

> criticized Bill and

> the "New York office" vitriolically at every

> opportunity. Bill

> steadfastly refused to hold a grudge against him and

> in

=== message truncated ===

++++Message 3162. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W''s writings on Vitamin B

From: James Flynn . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2006 10:21:00 AM

The book Under The Influence By Dr. James Milam explains in great detail the

benifits of vitamin B-complex for newly recovering alcoholics. I have never


anything written on the subject by Bill W. but it is widely known that he

was an

advocate of Niacin which is a B-vitamin.

Jim F.

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
++++Message 3163. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Young People''s Group- 4021

Clubhouse Phila, Pa.Celebrates 60 years

From: t . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2006 1:06:00 PM
perhaps these Grapevine articles will yield some answers...

Philadelphia seems to have started in Jan 46 - their follow up article


hearing from/about several earlier Young People's groups though.

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