Aa history Lovers 2006 moderators Nancy Olson and Glenn F. Chesnut page

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++++Message 3116. . . . . . . . . . . . 1948 and 1950 Statement of


From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/29/2006 4:42:00 PM
My sponsor told me about AA having a "statement of principles" in

1950. He

tells me they originally came out in 1948 but that no proof is obtainable


New York. Does anyone know about this?
The statement of principles of 1948 is in Appendix G in Mitch K's book

"How it

Does anyone know why these were replaced by the 1950 statement of


Do they give General Service more power?
Why does Royal S., the attorney who incorporated the Grapevine, on pg 199


the trustees suppressed the statement of 1948?
t/y Shakey Mike G.
Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com)
++++Message 3117. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Dr. Howard/Hank P.


From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/29/2006 5:00:00 AM
Hi Rick,
As Stated in my original post this appears to be the draft edited by

Hank P. and Dr. Howard. It does not appear to be anything like a draft

that a publisher could work from and if you look closely at the 4

pages from the Sotheby's Catelog I think you will agree. Its quite

obviously an intermediate sort of draft as it doesn't remotely agree

with the finished product. Also as stated previously there are two

handwritten references to Dr. Howard and most of the handwriting is

Hank P.'s in my opinion. I disagee with the Sotheby assertion that

this is the final copy that went to Cornwall Press. This document is

far more significant historically. I am quite cautious with such an

assertion as their experts are quite meticulous.
Please look to what's available facimilewise rather than what

secondhand reporters tell us.

All the best!!
--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "ricktompkins"



> The "Printer's draft" manuscript of the Big Book was sold in


2004 for 1.56 million dollars, through a telephone bid from California

to the auction site in NYC. Bill P. of Hazelden Press verified its

authenticity at the time, after his report of viewing the entire

manuscript on what we know as our 'first 164 pages.' From what I have

learned, this one manuscript was brought to Cornwall Press in the

Nyack, New York area of the Hudson River valley in February 1939---the

linotype operators made the galleys of Alcoholics Anonymous from this


> $1.56 million is a great deal of private money, but I wonder if the

artifact will ever be shown to the general AA public. Such a shame!

even the AA Archives at GSO stayed away from the auction fracas, with

AAWS having no opinion on this outside issue: the fiscal speculation

of AA archival items.

> The manuscript was the property of Barry L., confidant of Lois and

the writer of AAWS' Living Sober in 1973. Lois gave it to him the

mid-1970s and Barry's grand-nephew put it up on the auction block last


> Honestly, I was saddened that the nephew never considered

contributing it to the AA Archives at GSO, even with its potential tax


> In serenity,

> Rick, Illinois


++++Message 3118. . . . . . . . . . . . Alcoholics Anonymous C.O.A. - Harper

Bros. information needed

From: mr.grassroots . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/28/2006 10:13:00 PM
I posted a request for information on the Harper Brothers printings of

the volume "Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age" some time ago but


to have a problem connecting/receiveing feedback. (Probably my doing

since I am not completely familiar with this board yet.)
In general I was wondering as to how many copies Harpers did of this

work? different printings? Total number printed?

Thank You in advance for your patience and will keep checking back in.
++++Message 3119. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Printer''s Copy and Dr. Howard

From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/29/2006 5:29:00 AM

The name Curry is extremely interesting as it was one of names

mentioned by Bill and Hank during their 2 week stock redemption

debate, as a creditor of Henry G. Parkhurst, Inc. (unincorporated in

reality)(the name Honor Dealers was not used in this discussion, Hank'

contention was that he was principally liable as the company bore his

namesake so he owned the furniture. Bill pointed out that as treasurer

, an officer, he was equally liable). One of the other creditors was

Sinclair Oil.

As I stated originally after reviewing the 4 pages from the Sotheby's

catelog its my very stong opinion that this wasn't a "publisher's

draft" but rather an intermittent draft and is mostly in Hank P's and

very likely the mysterious Dr. Howard's hand. The one page in Bill's

hand was written many years after publication. Hopefully more people

can view the photo fascimiles from the catelog to understand my point.

If there's anyone living in the Essex or Morris County area's please

check the various city directories for Dr. Marcus A. Curry.

Thank you jlobdell for this possible lead into identifying the elusive

Dr. Howard. Greystone Park yielded several very early members

including Morgan R., from Glen Ridge, who spoke on the radio about AA.
Source - documents in GSO Archives 1939-40 for unpublished yet Black

Sheep manuscript)

All the Best!!!


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "jlobdell54"



> Given that AA cannot accept gifts from non-members and only gifts of

> either $1000 or $2000 (I'm not sure which) from members in any given

> year, it's not clear to me how the Printer's Copy could have been

> given to AA. Correct me if I am wrong. So far as I know, the Archives

> are not separately incorporated and must therefore fall under the AAWS

> restriction, I believe. On the name of the "Chief Psychiatrist of


> I suggest Marcus A. Curry, Chief at the NJ State Asylum for the Insane

> at Greystone Park during the years 1936-40 (from the Greystone Park

> Annual Reports 1936-40 in the NJ State Archives). -- Jared Lobdell


++++Message 3120. . . . . . . . . . . . Sauerkraut remedy

From: Rich Foss . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/28/2006 12:13:00 PM

An "old timer" in our fellowship is fond of using the Sauerkraut


treatment when he finds a wet one. It may have something to do with

replacing electrolytes or something. He says it is mentioned in our

literature. But we cannot find it. Perhaps AA Comes of Age or Dr. Bob and

the Old Timers? The force of his personality and his approach to AA's

simple program of recovery have helped a great number of people find a way

out. Just curious about the Sauerkraut.



++++Message 3121. . . . . . . . . . . . Change of terms

From: David Jones . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/30/2006 10:38:00 AM

Hi. Does any one know why the term ex-alcoholic was replaced with ex-problem

drinker in the big book.

God bless
++++Message 3122. . . . . . . . . . . . Ray O''K died Jan. 28th

From: John Pine . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/27/2006 11:18:00 AM

FYI, an eloquent and influential member of the fellowship, Ray O'K., died in

Florida earlier this week and will be buried in Larchmont, NY on Saturday,

1/28. Here is a link to a newspaper obituary.


John P.

Richmond, VA

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
++++Message 3123. . . . . . . . . . . . Enneagram and 4th Step in 12x12

From: Soberholic . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/28/2006 1:51:00 AM

Has anybody has ever brought up a question about the connection between the

theory of the enneagram and the 4th Step in 12x12? Does anyone know if Bill


was aware of the early enneagram movement?

In the theory of the enneagram, in the instinctual subtypes, each type also


three main instinctual subtypes - the Self-Preservation, Sexual and Social


In the area of ego-fixations and the deadly sins, the Enneagram types have


been correlated with the traditional Seven Deadly Sins plus two additional

descriptors - 'deceit' and 'fear'. The '7 sins + 2' need to be understood in


much more specific meaning than usual."



++++Message 3124. . . . . . . . . . . . National Archives Workshop

From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/2/2006 1:52:00 PM

Because of the hurricane which struck New Orleans just

before the National Archives Workshop was to take place,

it has had to be rescheduled and relocated to another part

of Louisiana. We have had to miss a year, to allow these

new accommodations to be obtained, but everything is now

set up to hold the workshop in Baton Rouge.

10th Annual National Archives Workshop

September 14-17, 2006

Baton Rouge, Louisiana
Holiday Inn South

9940 Airline HiWay

Baton Rouge, Louisiana. 70816

(255) 924-7021 Fax: (225) 924-9816

Mention N.A.W. (by August 31, 2006) for $79.00 room rate.
Jimmy H. phone 504-382-9286 or email

jhardingnola@cox.net (jhardingnola at cox.net)

Bobby B. phone 337-662-3402 or email

danieb@att.net (danieb at att.net)

Sent to us by: "Area64archives.org"

daggerrose@area64tnarchives.org (daggerrose at area64tnarchives.org)

++++Message 3125. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Alcoholics Anonymous C.O.A. -

Harper Bros. information needed

From: j_oys5672 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/1/2006 5:04:00 PM
--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "mr.grassroots"



> I posted a request for information on the Harper Brothers printings of

> the volume "Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age" some time ago

but seem

> to have a problem connecting/receiveing feedback. (Probably my doing

> since I am not completely familiar with this board yet.)


> In general I was wondering as to how many copies Harpers did of this

> work? different printings? Total number printed?


> Thank You in advance for your patience and will keep checking back in.

Good Afternoon Mr. Grassroots
I would suggest contacting the Archives desk at the General Service Office


New York.

They should be able to provide you with the information that you are

seeking. I

believe it

should also be available in the 1957 Final Conference Report.

Thelr Ph. # is (212)-870-8700 , website www.aa.org
In Service
++++Message 3126. . . . . . . . . . . . Accident

From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/1/2006 4:58:00 PM

Friends (and a few others),
On Saturday, Jan. 28th, I suffered a serious accident that, though

non-fatal, will substantially lay me up for some time. Please do not

write of your sympapthy and concern, in which I trust. I came home

from the hospital to over 700 messages. I will reply according to my

ability and larger priorities.
Thank you for your consideration.
ernie kurtz
From the moderator:
Dr. Kurtz, a Harvard-trained historian, is the author of "Not God:

A History of Alcoholics Anonymous" and "The Spirituality of

Imperfection: Storytelling and the Search for Meaning."
He is widely recognized as the leading academic historian

in the field of AA history. A good history of the AA

movement in the 20th century will have to include a section

on his major ideas and contributions.

The title of his major book reminds us that we must first recognize

that we ourselves are NOT God before we will turn to the higher

power of the twelve step program (who is the REAL God) and

ask for help.

I do not have any information myself, beyond what appears in Ernie's

letter. If I learn more, I will let you know.

Glenn Chesnut
++++Message 3127. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Sauerkraut remedy

From: Peggy Anna . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2006 5:26:00 PM

I have a book written in 1993 by Don Julio DeMedici Santaleone, entitled

"The James Connection or Sauerkraut, Tomatoes, and Karo Syrup" The


has been a member of AA for over 20 years now and lives in Rochester, New

York. In his introduction he states "as related in Dr. Bob and the Good

Oldtimers (p 74) a detoxification treatment of a combination of tomatoes,

sauerkraut and Karo corn syrup was administered by Bill W. to Dr. Bob in

order to supply Bob with vitamins and energy so that Bob could perform

Peggy Anna

----- Original Message -----

From: "Rich Foss"


Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 12:13 PM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Sauerkraut remedy


> An "old timer" in our fellowship is fond of using the

Sauerkraut Juice

> treatment when he finds a wet one. It may have something to do with

> replacing electrolytes or something. He says it is mentioned in our

> literature. But we cannot find it. Perhaps AA Comes of Age or Dr. Bob

> and

> the Old Timers? The force of his personality and his approach to AA's

> simple program of recovery have helped a great number of people find a


> out. Just curious about the Sauerkraut.

> Thanks.

> Rich








> Yahoo! Groups Links







++++Message 3128. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Enneagram and 4th Step in 12x12

From: James Bliss . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2006 5:31:00 PM

From a quick research on the Eneagram, the theory was

not formulated until 1960 (the nine types), which means

that it had no association with the development of the

4th step. Please see:

It describes the various people in the wikipedia discussion

and what their theories were.

++++Message 3129. . . . . . . . . . . . Significant February dates in A.A.


From: chesbayman56 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/1/2006 10:23:00 AM
Feb 1908 - Bill made boomerang.

Feb 1916 - hazing incident Norwich University, Bill and sophomore class


Feb 1938 - Rockefeller gives $5,000 to AA. - Saves AA from


Feb 1939 - Dr Harry Tiebout, 1st Psychiatrist to endorse AA and use

in his practice.

Feb 1939 - Dr Howard of Montclair, NJ suggests swapping "you


for "we ought" in the Big Book.

Feb 1940 - 1st AA clubhouse opens at 334-1/2 West 24th Street, NYC.

Feb 1951 - Fortune magazine article about AA. New York reprints in

pamphlet form for many years.

Feb 1963 - Harpers carries article critical of AA.

Feb 1981 - 1st issue of "Markings" AA Archives Newsletter is


Feb 1 or 2, 1942 - Ruth Hock, AA's 1st paid secretary, resigns to get


Feb 8, 1940 - Rockefeller dinner.

Feb 8, 1940 - Houston Press ran first of 6 anonymous articles on AA

by Larry J.

Feb 9, 2002 - Sue Smith Windows, Dr Bob's daughter died.

Feb 11, 1937 - First New Jersey meeting was held at the home of Hank

P ("The Unbeliever" in the first edition). Some sources report


as happening Feb 13, 1937

Feb 11, 1938 - Clarence S. ("Home Brewmeister" 1st-3rd edition)

sobriety date.

Feb 14, 1971 - AA groups worldwide hold memorial service for Bill W.

Feb 14, 2000 - William Y., "California Bill" dies in Winston



Feb 15, 1918 - Sue Smith Windows, Dr. Bob's adopted daughter, was


Feb 15, 1941 - Baltimore Sunday Sun reported that the city's first AA

group, begun in June 1940, had grown from 3 to 40 members.

Feb 17, - Jim B contacted Charlie B, whom he had met once, some two

years before, at a New York AA meeting.

Feb 18, 1943 - During gas rationing in WWII, AA's are granted the

right to use cars for 12th step work in emergency cases.

Feb 19, 1967 - Father "John Doe" (Ralph P), 1st Catholic Priest in



Feb 20, 1941 - The Toledo Blade published first of three articles on

AA by Seymour Rothman.

Feb 23, 1959 - AA granted "Recording for the Blind" permission to

tape the Big Book.

Feb 28, 1940 - First organization meeting of Philadelphia AA was held

at McCready Huston's room at 2209 Delancy Street.

++++Message 3130. . . . . . . . . . . . Trust God, Clean House, Help Others

From: ny-aa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2006 5:09:00 PM

It was interesting that we are discussing the prescription to

"Trust God, Clean House, Help Others" at the time the phrase

appears in the obituary of Ray OK. It is a clever way to speak

of his A.A. membership without actually mentioning Alcoholics

... Following the credo: "Trust God, Clean House

and Help Others", Mr. [O'K] was active in many

organizations and fellowships. He was well known for

his work with the New York State Bar Association,

where he was Chairman of the Committee on Lawyer

Alcoholism. He also worked tirelessly on issues

relating to alcoholism in the legal profession

with the ABA and ILAA. ...



++++Message 3131. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W and Dr. Bob

From: Jim S. . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/1/2006 2:30:00 PM

I have asked these questions several times in my F2F meetings and

sponsor, I have even checked the internet.

How did Dr. Bob wind up in the back of the BB with the stories instead

of in the main section (164 pgs)?

I usually relate the important stuff to the first 181 pages.
Really don't understand why Dr. Bob isn't given more credit, except that

Bill was a salesman and Dr. Bob wasn't.

Thank you for being here,
Jim S/Pensacola, FL
++++Message 3132. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: First woman was Jane S., not


From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/4/2006 5:54:00 PM
Hi Diz
As the eloquent John Wayne would have said "hold on there


The first woman to arrive on the scene in AA (in 1935) was the

legendary "Lil" of the "Victor and Lil" duo in Akron, OH

(re "Dr Bob

and the Good Oldtimers pgs 97-98, 109, 241). "Lil" reputedly


up outside AA. However, it is said she never got far enough along to

attend a meeting.
I'm not sure if the dry dates of Florence R or Jane S can be stated

with certainty or precision. Take for example Dr Bob's stated dry date

(June 10, 1935)and the starting date of the AMA convention in Atlantic

City, when he had his last binge for a few days (also June 10, 1935).

"Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers" provides Jane S' relative dry date

through old-timer Bob E. On pg 101 it states "Bob E who came into AA

in February 1937" (then on pg 122) "remembered that Jane S was


the 35-mile trip to the meeting at T Henry's in 1937, about the same

time he started" [Jane's trip was from Cleveland to Akron]. Pg 241

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