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5.10 Meaning of the word "purvapakshin"

Text COM:1738358 (39 lines)

From: Shyamasundara ACBSP
Date: 02-Oct-98 06:24
Subject: Nyaya
We may want to use the slightly different nomenclature used in the Vedanta
sutra. The necessity of Sangati is explained in the introduction to the Vedanta sutra:

“This Sastra consists of several Adhikaranas or topics or propositions. Every proposition consists of five parts:

(1) Thesis or Vishaya, (2) Doubt or Samsaya, (3) Antithesis or Purva Paksha,
(4) Synthesis or right conclusion or Siddhanta, and (5) lastly Sangati or
agreement of the proposition with other parts of the Sastra. Sangati or
consistency shows that there is no conflict in what proceeds and what
follows. It is of three sorts:-

(1) Consistency with the scripture called Sastra Sangati, (2) consistency with the whole book or Adhyaya Sangati, (3) consistency with the whole chapter or Pada, called Pada Sangati. Thus in the whole book of the Vedanta-sutras Brahman is its main theme, it is the subject matter of discussion. Therefore, an interpretation of any passage, in order to fulfill the condition of Sastra Sangati, must not go away from the subject matter of Brahman. Secondarily, with the Adhyaya or portion of the book of the Vedanta-sutras, each Adhyaya has a particular topic of its own and a passage must be interpreted consistently with the topic of that Adhyaya. Similar is the case with Pada Sangati. Besides these three sorts of Sangatis, there is a certain relation between Adhikaranas themselves. One Adhikarana leads to another through some particular association of ideas. In a Pada there are many Adhikaranas and they are not put together at haphazard. The Sangati which binds one Adhikarana with another is of six sorts:-

(1) Akshepa Sangati or objection, (2) Drishtanta or illustration, (3) Prati
Drishtanta or counter-illustration, (4) Prasanga Sangati or incidental
illustration, (5) Utpatti Sangati or introduction, (6) Apavada Sangati or
exception. All these various kinds will be shown in there proper place in
explaining these Sutras. An Adhikarana or topic is also called Nyaya.”
(Text COM:1738358) -----------------------------------------

5.11 Bhaktin Casey: Follower of Mother Malati dd

Text COM:1743213 (125 lines)

From: Internet: ameyatma (ACBSP)
Date: 04-Oct-98 14:23
To: GHQ [169]
Comment: Text COM:1743451 by Krishna Kirti (das) HDG (Baltimore - USA)
Comment: Text COM:1746699 by Shyamasundara ACBSP
Subject: DIS : Feminist Preaching KC
Hare Krsna

In late June of this year I got an email from a devotee who found my page on Training for Brahmacarinis (to become KC wives), Dharma, Marriage, and the Daughter and other related articles on my WEB page.

Here are excerpts of some of her responses:

> hare krsna.

> i was completely shocked and appalled by your webpage.
> srila prabhupada said that the women’s issue is not to be “aggravated.”
> [...]
> i guess i should have stayed with my abusive husband, huh? oh,
> wait, it must have been my fault he was abusive, i wasn’t submissive
> enough, i suppose.

(This is what Srila Prabhupad said, but these matajis don’t want to hear this

sort of thing)

> iskcon has a serious problem with the mistreatment and exclusion of

> women. and i feel strongly your webpage helps further this problem.

> ...if any of the young people i preach to (my guru maharaja has given me

> the instruction to preach to the punk kids, because i was one) came across
> the hare krsna index and onto your page, my preaching would be down the > tubes and they would run the other way. i don’t disagree with everything
> on your page, prabhu, just some of it. i’m not completely unreasonable and > i do belive that women and men have different roles. but do you think that > many nondevotees would be able to handle reading some of that stuff? i do > a lot of preaching too amongst the roit grrrl movement (radical youth
> feminists). they’d go nuts over it. there are some things we simply don’t
> say to non-devotees. some of the things on your page are the equivalent of > going up to a member of the christian coalition and saying, “sir, lord
> brahma, the creator of this world, has four heads, kindly take to chanting
> the maha-mantra.” it’s just too much.
> ... i’m in dc after three years of living in new vrindaban. before that I was
> in the columbus ladies’ asrama, under malati devi’s care.
> -bhaktin casey

Here this bhaktin admits that she is recruiting members from among the ‘roit grrl movement,’ what ever that is... which she herself defines as Radical

Young Feminists. I told her she should start a whole new radical wave and introduce the idea of chastity...

Yes, if a radical feminist read what I (not me, Prabhupada) says, I agree, they will have a field day. And if they run the other way? Well, do we really want such people to become devotees? (Can such people become ‘devotees’?)

Here these women, trained by mother Malati, are out there recruiting radical
feminists to join ISKCON, and the recruiters of these feminists don’t want any of us ‘loose canons’ to go around repeating what Srila Prabhupada taught regarding women and men’s roles in society. How dare we even try to preach publicly that a wife should be ‘submissive’ to her husband. This is a ‘shock’ to them, they are appalled by it.

But do we want such people as members of ISKCON ? Of course, we want that everyone be a devotee - but, they must take up the philosophy. If one wants to live in Prabhupad’s ashrams and call him/her self a follower and members of ISKCON then he must accept our philosophy. It is no different that allowing a Shivite to come and allow him to go on preaching that Shiva is God, and in the name of ISKCON recruits many Sivites to come and join.

So, what happens when these radical feminists become bhaktin, brahmacarinis? Eventually some young brahmacari will want to marry them. May God have Mercy on his on soul...He reads how in KC the wife is to be submissive and he sees this nice brahmacarini and asks to marry her, looking forward to a peaceful KC married life. We saw once such brahmacarini several years ago in LA. She came to help my wife baby sit for a few days. The girl was talking about taking initiation, so my wife asked what about getting married. I then mentioned how she may want to read what I have written about training for marriage and learning to become a submissive wife. What? Did I say something wrong? ‘Submissive’ Wife???

She laughed. No way was she going to be submissive to any man. No way. He

had better be submissive to her if he knew what was good for him....and so
on. Then a week later we heard she and one brahmacari announced plans to marry. I met this this poor guy and warned him NOT to do it. I told him it will be hell for him. He didn’t want to hear it, he was convinced she could be
changed....Fortunately she was the one who got cold feet and called it off.

But, by not training such girls and allowing such girls to be full time members we are creating the foundation for more broken families, more disruption in our society. If ISKCON’s policy is strong and bold and public, that women who join are to be trained how to be submissive wives, then those who agree to join will be of a more agreeable nature. But, if we allow Radical Feminists to join and NOT try to convince them to give up their maya, then all we are going to do is open the door wide to continued social disruption, continued divorce,continued broken families, abused children (abused by living through broken families).

ys ameyatma das

Chk out my web page at:

(Text COM:1743213) -----------------------------------------

Text COM:1743214 (51 lines)
From: Internet: ameyatma (ACBSP)
Date: 04-Oct-98 14:23
To: GHQ [170]
Reference: Text COM:1729575 by Bhakti Vikasa Swami
Comment: Text COM:1761759 by Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN)
Subject: FYI Re: Some observations
At 10:53 AM 9/29/98 +0000, you wrote:
>[Text 1729575 from COM]
>I recently saw in the Iskcon Communications Journal the transcript of a
>speech given at the infamous Iskcon Womens’ meet in LA. It presented the
>rights of women in Iskcon according to International Law.
>It is interesting to note how ICJ and Iskcon World Review (now Hare Krsna
>Today) have systematically promoted within our society the values of the
>secular humanist liberal (i.e. atheistic) “civilization.”

5 years ago I submitted my book “Kanya-Daya” on marriage of the daughter to mother Kunti for a review, and told her I wanted to place an ad in the next issue of what was then IWR. Mother Kunti is generally a nice devotee, and years ago she offered me a lot of help on some other matter, but, I feel it

is ‘odd’, if not questionable that someone who runs a major ISKCON publication hardly ever comes to the temple? And you really got to love
dogs if you want to go visit their home/office.

Anyway, my book contained many quotes regarding the roles of men and women, etc. A few days after submitting the request for a review I had to go over there for some other reason and I was handed back the review copy of the Kanya-Daya and told that IWR would not do a review. Her and her husband considered my book to represent everything that was wrong with the ‘old school of thought’ in ISKCON. That is how they refered to it, as the ‘old school or thought’. They told me that the IWR wanted to project the new

and modern face of Krsna Consciousness - namely that men and women should be treated equally.

I mentioned that I would still like to place an ad, and although I was not

directly told they would not publish such an ad, their response was a lecture about the need to emphasize women’s equal rights in ISKCON. SarvaSatya told me that when he read what I was saying how women are to become submissive to their husband’s, etc, that Srila Prabhupad was only talking about the old days in India, and that those ‘few’ quotes were not the real message Prabhupad was teaching. After all, this is a spiritual movement and spiritually we are all equal. To discriminate between men and women is on the bodily platform. And it wasn’t just a cordial discussion of differing views, but got emotional about it.

Although they did not tell me verbatum that they would not accept my ad for my book, after this I just dropped the idea and never tried to promote it.

I felt there had to be some favorable climate first.

However, if these publications act as official representations of ISKCON,

shouldn’t they also precisely represent what Srila Prabhupada actually taught?
ys ameyatma das

Chk out my web page at:

(Text COM:1743214) -----------------------------------------

Text COM:1746067 (12 lines)
From: Guru-Krsna (das) HDG (Alachua, FL - USA)
Date: 05-Oct-98 16:55
To: GHQ [188]
Subject: DIS Abbreviations

Suggestion to use abbreviations for names that will often be repeated in our

discussions. I offer the following simple beginning list:

(We already have MR)

R-Radha dd (MG)
P-Pranada dd
S-Sudharma dd
V-Visakha dd
J-Jyotirmayi dd

Maybe we use 2 letters for our own names (?)

(Text COM:1746067) -----------------------------------------

Text COM:1746699 (34 lines)
From: Shyamasundara ACBSP
Date: 05-Oct-98 17:26
To: ameyatma (ACBSP)
Reference: Text COM:1743213 by Internet: ameyatma (ACBSP)
Comment: Text COM:1803373 by Vidvan Gauranga (das) JPS (Mayapur - IN)
Subject: DIS : Feminist Preaching KC

> Yes, if a radical feminist read what I (not me, Prabhupad) says, I agree,

> they will have a field day. And if they run the other way? Well, do we
> really want such people to become devotees? (Can such people become
> ‘devotees’?)

SP said this movement is not for everybody. We prefer one Moon to many

stars. Better to have a few unified devotees than a lot of un-unified devotees. A few disciplined men can accomplish a lot more than a larger
group of undisciplined men. As the Marines say: “we only want a few good
men.” When Alexander the Great attacked Persia he only had an army of about 40,000 men against their million man army. He purposely fought battles in which he was outnumbered at least three or four to one, often on terrain that was unfavorable to him. Yet he won all his battles! Why did he do that? He did it so that the Persians would not think it was a fluke. Even though he had fewer men, much fewer, than the Persians. His men were strong, tough, disciplined and unified. The Persians were not.

Why waste time recruiting people who don’t accept our philosophy? It is

instituting a “5th column” within our own ranks.

> Here these women, trained by mother Malati, are out there recruiting

> radical feminsts to join ISKCON, and the recruiters of these feminsts don’t
> want any of us ‘loose canons’ to go around repeating what Srila Prabhupad
> taught regarding women and men’s roles in society. How dare we even try
> to preach publicly that a wife should be ‘submissive’ to her husband.
> This is a ‘shock’ to them, they are appalled by it.
>This is the result of Malati’s guidance!!
(Text COM:1746699) -----------------------------------------

In the following text,Guru-Krsna Dasa expresses concern about unseemly behavior of some GHQ members on other forums, where some wrangling was going on with feminists:
Text COM:1751883 (39 lines)
From: Guru-Krsna (das) HDG (Alachua, FL - USA)
Date: 07-Oct-98 13:48
To: GHQ [251]
Comment: Text COM:1752084 by Internet: Jivan Mukta Dasa
Subject: DIS Keeping cool

I humbly submit and agree that we DO need to keep cool-headed at all times.

If we are not careful to avoid Vaisnava-apradha, then we are likely to be
destroyed in our attempts to cause positive reform in ISKCON. We cannot
afford to lose our few fighting soldiers to the clutches of *maya* in the
form of unecessary, exaggerated, blanket, or false criticism of the

Personally, I don’t know how much we should even expect to change the minds of the purvapakshins, nor do I know how much we can expect our pro-Vedic allies in leadership to be able to influence them. That is a wonder. We know that Vedic culture is the ONLY culture and must be established. We and the purvapakshins know that Western non-culture is the one within which SP originally and successfully introduced Kc and that that non-culture is the increasingly predominating influence in the world today.

The purvapakshins say that we have to make Kc attractive to the people of
today, just as SP made adjustments for time and circumstance. We say that Kc is all-attractive and should be presented more and more as it actually is,
not less and less so according to the decreasing ability of the increasingly degraded populace to understand or appreciate it. But the atmosphere is steeped in ignorance. Most devotees are neophyte and often self-complacent. Their idea of preaching is to bring non-devotees to the same platform of self-complacency that they have achieved by their neophyte application of the principles of Kc (is this correct?)

My simple understanding is that only by our collectively pure and best

intelligence, by which we appeal to the intelligence and good intentions of
our leaders, do we have any hope to succeed in our endeavor. Short of
success, we on GHQ may each benefit from our collective association and
information exchange--for that, we are already successful. But for the
purpose of achieving our shared goals, perhaps all of us would rather meet
with success than failure. To that end, I humbly submit that we remain very
CAREFUL to avoid Vaisnava-apradha and unecessary criticisms and unecessary entanglements with the purvapakshins, all of which will cause havoc or destruction to our own spiritual lives.

In humble service mood,

(Text COM:1751883) -----------------------------------------

Text COM:1756624 (26 lines)
From: Rasananda Swami (USA)
Date: 09-Oct-98 08:02
To: GHQ [271]
Camp: Mumbai

Dear members of GHQ.

Please, accept my obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Now you will see me as your traitor. But I have to reveal that I do not like

to read what is being told about MMalati. I consider her a good vaisnavi. I lived in New Vrndavana for some time as sankirtana leader (about two years ago) and I had some exchanges with her and due to circunstances I had to visited her ashram. I have to tell you that I was always pleased by visiting her ashram. I appreciated the training that she gave to her girls. They were relating with me in a chaste and polite way. There is a chance that I was bewildered by their way, but I do not believe so.

Of course, considering all this points do not make me supportive of the idea

of women managing our society.

I suggest that we gain victory on this issue without the need of personal

criticism. We should benefit ourselves by sharing our realizations in sastra
and Prabhupada’s behaviour and words.

Hoping you are well, your servant,

Rasananda Swami
(Text COM:1756624) -----------------------------------------

Text COM:1762456 (79 lines)
From: Shyamasundara ACBSP
Date: 12-Oct-98 13:55
Subject: Re: Puffed up concept of womanly life - Pancharatna Prabhu pl
---------- Forwarded Message ----------

Letter COM:1762229 (66 lines)

From: Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN)
Date: 12-Oct-98 17:22
To: Dharma of Women [1591]
Cc: ISKCON India (news & discussion) [581]
Bcc: Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College - USA) [5740]
Reference: Text COM:1756071 by (Temple) Jaipur (India)
Subject: Re: Puffed up concept of womanly life - Pancharatna Prabhu pl
Dear Braja Sevaka Mataji,

Namonamaha. Jaya Srila Prabhupada!

I’ve followed some of your texts both on DoW & II n & d & I’m surprised that you are disturbed.

While, yes, I agree that sometimes Jivan Mukta Prabhu uses highly critical

language, it must be pointed out (as I have done to Pancharatna Prabhu
regarding his letter) that it is being done with a view of establishing the
vedic veiwpoint on the duties of women as *clearly* enunciated by Srila
Prabhupada and all of the purvacharyas in the Gaudiya Sampradaya and also
the other Vaishnav sampradayas.

Ideally, we should be most respectful to all others; amanina mandena...

However, Srila Prabhupada got quite upset with his adverseries on several
occasions - both those within & without the sampradaya.

There are several examples: the famous “I will kick him on his face” comment about “Guru Maharaj Ji” (known here in India as “Bal Yogeshwar”) & his calling many of his godbrothers “envious”.

Harsh language sometimes is employed when persons, even after hearing well presented and documented arguments, simply *do not accept*.

This seems to be the case developing here regarding the position of women in Vedic culture. In the name of “equality” “abuse” and any other number of

pejorative words are being employed by a number of lady devotees in ISKCON to literally “change the vedic outlook”, that is so clearly established in vedic literatures such as the Srimad-Bhavagatam, Valmiki Ramayana, etc. and also which has been accepted tradition among cultured Hindu families here in India.

You seem to be writing from Jaipur, in the heart of one of India’s most “proud” & tradition bound states, Rajasthan. There, ladies cultivated extreme shyness & devotion to the family and household - never venturing in public with faces exposed, for any task. It is called “ghoonghat” in Rajasthani bhasa.

So I am surprised that you appear to be like the lotus flower there! Living
in the middle of the water, but “untouched”.

If you, like myself, are of “western” or more accurately, non-Hindu origins,

then that explains it. Or is it a background in the “modern”, “westernized”
educational system prevalant here in India that has made it easier to forget
about Vedic/Hindu/vaishnava/Indian traditions & become worried about the language employed by Jivan Mukta Prabhu rather than the concepts that are being discussed by him - without deviating from SP’s & the vedic view?

As in a joke a devotee sent me (in an e-mail) some time ago: either you

(meaning, generally a woman, not in your specific case, [seriously]) are
pregnant or not!

The meaning is; that either we must accept the conclusions of vedic literature or reject them. There is no middle ground. (a woman is either

pregnant or not; not just “a little pregnant”).

Yes, “utility is the principle”; but in the name of that, we cannot alter the vedic concept of life!

I pray, in all seriousness, that you understand.


Basu Ghosh Das
(Text COM:1762229) -----------------------------------------
(Text COM:1762456) -----------------------------------------

Letter COM:1859186 (29 lines)
From: Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN)
Date: 17-Nov-98 16:10
To: Jivan Mukta Dasa (sent: 17-Nov-98 16:16)
Reference: Text COM:1857720 by Internet: Jivan Mukta Dasa
Subject: Re: Women on the GBC
Prabhuji, although it is a fact that Malati’s past would offer ample evidence for her to adopt a most humble profile, at the same time I don’t think that she’s so bad (& neither does BVKS. We discussed this issue a few days back). She has given up her “duracharaha” & so maybe, in the eyes of Krishna she just might be... api chet suduracharo, bhajate mam ananya bhak. sadhur eva sa mantavyaha...

The fact is that Prabhupada encouraged several “similar type” men to come

back to KC after falldowns (maybe not SO gross, but gross nonetheless) &
even made them GBCs.

BVKS, ***** Prabhu (a forward of a personal letter from him is

herewith sent. Please keep it confidential), Shyamasundara Prabhu & I’m
sure a number of others really hate, like you do, the watering down of the

But IMHO we ought to keep it as gentlemanly as possible (guess I’m preaching to myself here as much as to you!) Malati is doing 1000 times more service for ISKCON than *** (who is doing precious NOTHING) & ***, etc. Seems to me that Srila Prabhupada would’ve taken cognizance of that - I speak with reference to the actual history.

Basu Ghosh Das
(Text COM:1859186) -----------------------------------------

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