Notes from a think tank



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TO ME THIS SUGGESTS THAT VEDIC GOALS WERE TO SATISFY ALL WALKS OF SOCIETY. THE RESULT OF NOT FOLLOWING THE VEDIC PATH RESULTS IN WHAT WE OFTEN SEE AND HEAR COMPLAINED ABOUT, AND NOT VISA VERSA.

CHAPTER V.
89. Libations of water shall not be offered to those who (neglect
the prescribed rites and may be said to) have been born in vain, to
those born in consequence of an illegal mixture of the castes, to
those who are ascetics (of heretical sects), and to those who have
committed suicide,
90. To women who have joined a heretical sect, who through lust
live (with many men), who have caused an abortion, have killed their
husbands, or drink spirituous liquor.

HERETIC SECTS??? “NON-VEDIC” / “NON-DHARMIC” / “OPPOSING THE TEACHINGS OF SHASTRA”, WHAT TO SPEAK OF ABORTIONS (freedom of womens right to choose), KILLING OF HUSBANDS IN NUMEROUS WAYS (by not following him, challenging him, cheating on him, etc.), INTOXICATION - WOULD HAUGHTINESS ALSO BE FITTING HERE OR IS THIS JUST ABOUT POLLUTING THE BODY WITH INTOXICANTS? (NO NEED TO ANSWER - JUST FOOD FOR THOUGHT!!!)

CHAPTER TEN.
349. In their own defence, in a strife for the fees of
officiating priests, and in order to protect women and Brahmanas; he
who (under such circumstances) kills in the cause of right, commits no
sin.
356. He who addresses the wife of another man at a Tirtha,
outside the village, in a forest, or at the confluence of rivers,
suffer (the punishment for) adulterous acts (samgrahana).
357. Offering presents (to a woman), romping (with her), touching
her ornaments and dress, sitting with her on a bed, all (these acts)
are considered adulterous acts (samgrahana).
358. If one touches a woman in a place (which ought) not (to be
touched) or allows (oneself to be touched in such a spot), all (such
acts done) with mutual consent are declared (to be) adulterous
(samgrahana).
359. A man who is not a Brahmana ought to suffer death for adultery
(samgrahana); for the wives of all the four castes even must always be
carefully guarded.
360. Mendicants, bards, men who have performed the initiatory
ceremony of a Vedic sacrifice, and artisans are not prohibited from
speaking to married women.
361. Let no man converse with the wives of others after he has been
forbidden (to do so); but he who converses (with them), in spite of
a prohibition, shall be fined one suvarna.
362. This rule does not apply to the wives of actors and singers,
nor (of) those who live on (the intrigues of) their own (wives); for
such men send their wives (to others) or, concealing themselves, allow
them to hold criminal intercourse.
363. Yet he who secretly converses with such women, or with
female slaves kept by one (master), and with female ascetics, shall be
compelled to pay a small fine.
364. He who violates an unwilling maiden shall instantly suffer
corporal punishment; but a man who enjoys a willing maiden shall not
suffer corporal punishment, if (his caste be) the same (as hers).
365. From a maiden who makes advances to a (man of) high (caste),
he shall not take any fine; but her, who courts a (man of) low
(caste), let him force to live confined in her house.
366. A (man of) low (caste) who makes love to a maiden (of) the
highest (caste) shall suffer corporal punishment; he who addresses a
maiden (on) equal (caste) shall pay the nuptial fee, if her father
desires it.
367. But if any man through insolence forcibly contaminates a
maiden, two of his fingers shall be instantly cut off, and he shall
pay a fine of six hundred (panas).
368. A man (of) equal (caste) who defiles a willing maiden shall
not suffer the amputation of his fingers, but shall pay a fine of
two hundred (panas) in order to deter him from a repetition (of the
offence).
369. A damsel who pollutes (another) damsel must be fined two
hundred (panas), pay the double of her (nuptial) fee, and receive
ten (lashes with a) rod.
370. But a woman who pollutes a damsel shall instantly have (her
head) shaved or two fingers cut off, and be made to ride (through
the town) on a donkey.

SHOWS ANOTHER ASPECT OF WHAT VEDIC SOCIETY THOUGHT OF HOMOSEXUALITY FROM THAT OF LESBIANISM.

CHAPTER IX.

1. I will now propound the eternal laws for a husband and his


wife who keep to the path of duty, whether they be united or
separated.
2. Day and night woman must be kept in dependence by the males (of)
their (families), and, if they attach themselves to sensual enjoyments, they must be kept under one’s control.
3. Her father protects (her) in childhood, her husband protects
(her) in youth, and her sons protect (her) in old age; a woman is
never fit for independence.
4. Reprehensible is the father who gives not (his daughter in marriage) at the proper time; reprehensible is the husband who approaches not (his wife in due season), and reprehensible is the son who does not protect his mother after her husband has died.
5. Women must particularly be guarded against evil inclinations, however trifling (they may appear); for, if they are not guarded, theywill bring sorrow on two families.
6. Considering that the highest duty of all castes, even weak husbands (must) strive to guard their wives.
7. He who carefully guards his wife, preserves (the purity of) his offspring, virtuous conduct, his family, himself, and his (means of acquiring) merit.
8. The husband, after conception by his wife, becomes an embryo and
is born again of her; for that is the wifehood of a wife (gaya), that he is born (gayate) again by her.
9. As the male is to whom a wife cleaves, even so is the son whom she brings forth; let him therefore carefully guard his wife, in order to keep his offspring pure.
10. No man can completely guard women by force; but they can be guarded by the employment of the (following) expedients:
11. Let the (husband) employ his (wife) in the collection and expenditure of his wealth, in keeping (everything) clean, in (the fulfilment of) religious duties, in the preparation of his food, and in looking after the household utensils.
12. Women, confined in the house under trustworthy and obedient servants, are not (well) guarded; but those who of their own accord keep guard over themselves, are well guarded.
13. Drinking (spirituous liquor), associating with wicked people, separation from the husband, rambling abroad, sleeping (at unseasonable hours), and dwelling in other men’s houses, are the six causes of the ruin of women.
14. Women do not care for beauty, nor is their attention fixed on age; (thinking), ‘(It is enough that) he is a man,’ they give themselves to the handsome and to the ugly.
15. Through their passion for men, through their mutable temper, through their natural heartlessness, they become disloyal towards their husbands, however carefully they may be guarded in this (world).
16. Knowing their disposition, which the Lord of creatures laid in them at the creation, to be such, (every) man should most strenuously exert himself to guard them.
17. (When creating them) Manu allotted to women (a love of their) bed, (of their) seat and (of) ornament, impure desires, wrath, dishonesty, malice, and bad conduct.
18. For women no (sacramental) rite (is performed) with sacred texts, thus the law is settled; women (who are) destitute of strength and destitute of (the knowledge of) Vedic texts, (are as impure as) falsehood (itself), that is a fixed rule.
19. And to this effect many sacred texts are sung also in the Vedas, in order to (make) fully known the true disposition (of women); hear (now those texts which refer to) the expiation of their (sins).
20. ‘If my mother, going astray and unfaithful, conceived illicit desires, may my father keep that seed from me,’ that is the scriptural text.
21. If a woman thinks in her heart of anything that would pain her husband, the (above-mentioned text) is declared (to be a means for) completely removing such infidelity.
(Text COM:1805435) -----------------------------------------

4.19 If a man abuses a women his own brothers should beat him.
Text COM:1805617 (107 lines)
From: Dayaram (das) JPS (Mayapur - IN)
Date: 28-Oct-98 10:30
To: DMW (Dharma of Men and Women) [1929]
To: GHQ [481]
To: (International) Women’s Ministry [126]
To: Madhusudani Radha (dd) JPS (Mill Valley-USA) [15338] (forwarded:
To: Sita (dd) GKG (Back to Basics) (Ontario - CAN) [749] (received:
To: Anandini@aol.com (sent: 28-Oct-98 10:36)
To: pranada@mindspring.com (sent: 28-Oct-98 10:36)
Cc: Bhadra Balaram (das) JPS (Mayapur - IN) [10224] (received: 29-Oct-
Cc: Gopavrndapal (das) BCS [2178] (received: 29-Oct-98 18:54)
For: IWC (Internat. Women’s Conference)
Reference: Text COM:1786000 by pranada@mindspring.com
Subject: Re: Women on the GBC-- a few questions
------------------------------------------------------------
> Dear Anandini Prabhu,
>
> Just a quick point regarding your recent exchange with Basu Ghosh:

Dandavats. AGTSP.


Although I am not active on this conference. Here somethig I would like to
relate. Hope it will not offend anyone.

> You mention that abuse is a moral issue and goes on quite a bit in India.


> Basu Ghosh Prabhu disagrees with you.

I don’t have the previous texts, so can’t comment upon.

> Anti-cult organizations in the US and Europe watch closely how ISKCON
> treats our women and children. ISKCON is known around the world for not
> treating it’s women and children very well. At least that’s a shared a
> opinion by many. And because of this, ISKCON is a prime target by these
> organizations. Those devotees in Europe know the very real threat of the
> entire movement being completely shut down and this was one of the main
> issues for our detractors.

I also heard this before. All the women must be treated with respect. It’s not the fault of the culture but the practitioners who have exploited it.

> According to findings by the largest anti-cult group here in the US, Hindu
> women are the MOST abused women in the entire world. More abused than > any other cultural group on this planet (even those groups traditionally
> known for subordination of women like Iranians, Chinese, etc.)

I very much doubt this. I have a Hindu body and grew up in a joint family


with 4 uncles and grand father etc. staying in the same house. Definitely
women were not leading and would do all the household work and would be the last ones to assert themselves. But never abused rather supported if
husbands tried to abuse them.

> Just in case that didn’t sink in look at it again:


>
> Hindu women are the MOST abused women in the entire world.
>
> FIndings state that the reason this is so is that the Hindu women are the
> most likely NOT TO SAY ANYTHING ABOUT THEIR ABUSIVE SITUATION.
> Their training, as Basu Ghosh highlights is to stay with the husband at all
> costs, be submissive, etc.

It’s true that they are definitely more tolerant than ISKCON women. But


their exploitation is more of exception than rule. At least in cultured families that is the case. And among less cultured families, it is quite common that wife leaves husband and takes new one etc.

> There is nothing glorious about this and ISKCON women certainly don’t


> have to follow suit in the name of being chaste or “Vedic.”

I am very happy that I was not born in ISKCON family.

> Denigration of women has proved to foster abuse of women, wife-burning
> (the horrors of India), abandoning female children, etc. And subordination
> of women in Kali-yuga many times equates with the denigration of women > as proved by the examples of abused Hindu women all over the world.

We have read in the newspapers, about wife burning etc. and it is definitely


true but it is not a norm for sure. The society I grew up never had such an
incident at least I never noticed it. It mostly happened in some business
communities where money was everything.

Rather I had different experience. One of my uncles was a drunkard and it


was a big shame on the family and the uncle knew it very well. So, as long
as my grandfather was alive he never came to the house in drunken state and behaved well to his wife. But later on, after Grandfather’s death there was no one, who could control him. So, he would come to the house in druken
state and then started beating his wife. This was understood by other ladies
who were at home and reported to the other male members of the society. So, all the other brothers got together and warned him very heavily. But he
repeated one in their presence, and then all my other uncles and father got
together and gave him a good beating.

Although women were the last one to take their meals- after feeding children and male members of the family and sometime did grumble about it, but they were definitely protected. If someone ill-treated them then the whole family or community will come for their rescue. And in many times were controlling the families. Specially when their children grew up.

Generally in public place, When women complains against man her testimony is taken as truthful and the crowds will bash up the man for ill behaviour. I have seen it happening many times.

And Rajputs and other who are accused of male chauvinism -due to “Sati”


etc., were the ones who laid down their lives for keeping honour of the wife. Not only husband but whole clan.

To keep respect of Padmini not only her husband but the whole clan was


destroyed. Her husband could have handed her over to Allaudin Khilaji and
got patronage of Muslims and ruled Rajputana but he didn’t. To protect the
honour of wife was more important for him than his life.

This was medieval India, the darkest period, when enlightenment had not


reached the shores of India from the west.

Hare Krsna.


Ys
Dayarama Dasa
(Text COM:1805617) -----------------------------------------

4.20 Women’s Ministry can not provide real protection to women.
Text COM:1819621 (18 lines)
From: Internet: Sita dd
Date: 02-Nov-98 13:53
To: GHQ [540]
Subject: Re: Women in Leadership & position of ISKCON Women’s Ministry
------------------------------------------------------------
The Women’s Ministry wrote;

>4. And finally, we ask that you see through, and even challenge those


>individuals who are not our fathers, husbands, sons or protectors, yet who
>continually try to dictate our behavior, assess our character, speak behind
>our backs, judge and criminalize our chastity, use abhorrent language to
>describe the female Vaisnavis, allow for nothing more than a material
>perspective of women devotees, support domestic violence and / or
>publically condemn our service to our Spiritual Masters (or our Founder
>Acarya?) and husbands. [this part needs work!!]

Who are the protectors of these women? Their fathers? husbands? sons?


The problem here is that certain GBC members have become surrogate
protectors of these divorced and remarried women of the WM. But when we go to the GBC with a complaint about what they are saying, they remain silent. It is most discouraging.

Ys,
Sdd

(Text COM:1819621) -----------------------------------------

4.21 To be able to lead a woman a man must become an ideal devotee.
Text COM:1834194 (173 lines)
From: Shyamasundara ACBSP
Date: 07-Nov-98 14:19
To: GHQ
Subject: SHA Need for ideal men, then women will follow
------------------------------------------------------------
Ameyatma Prabhu has emphasized the need for training men and then the woman problem will be solved. He is correct. In the following lecture SP
emphazises that woman are mostly imbued with rajas and tamas. Men also, but only men can rise to sattva. Thus the husband must become a devotee to be able to lead his wife.

I recently attended and intensive training session on Ayurveda sponsored by the FVC, I asked the instructor Dr. Hans Ryhner, (Citrakara Dasa) about the medical differences between men and women from an Ayurvedic point of view. He said that of the 3 doshas women were mostly stuck in pitta because of their very complex hormone system. Thus they become unbalanced easily having one dosha so dominant. We didn’t spend a lot of time on it but it was interesting.

yhs
shyama

___________________________________

Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.3.17 -- LA, September 22, 1972 ---720922SB.LA

Pradyumna: (leads chanting, etc.)


dhanvantaram dvadasamam
trayodasamam eva ca
apayayat suran anyan
mohinya mohayan striya

Translation: “In the twelfth incarnation, the Lord appeared as Dhanvantari,


and in the thirteenth He allured the atheists by the charming beauty of a
woman and gave nectar to the demigods to drink.”
Prabhupada: This is very interesting verse. (laughs) (laughter) To have very
charming wife is not very good. And in your country you have got all
charming wife. Canakya Pandita says that there are four kinds of enemies in
family life. These are very experienced version. He says, mata satru. In
family means we live with father, mother, wife, children. This is family. In
your country family does not mean father-mother, only wife and children. But in our country, according to Vedic civilization, family is a large conception. Father, mother, brother, sister, sister’s son, brother’s son. If there are difficulty, one has to su... So on the whole, father, mother, wife and children, consisting of, family.

Now Canakya Pandita says, “In the family there are enemies.” How? Rna-karta pita satruh. Canakya Pandita said, “A father who is a great debtor, he is


enemy.” Because the son inherits the money of the father, similarly, the law
is that if the father dies a debtor, the son becomes responsible to pay the
debts. That is the law, Manu-samhita. I do not know what is the law here. I
don’t think the son is responsible for paying the debts of father, but in India that is the law. One big barrister, Mr. C. R. Das, his father died insolvent, making debts. So when he became very rich, he called all the creditors and paid five to five, that “My father was debtor. You take this money.” That is obligation. Therefore Canakya Pandita says, “The father who dies a debtor, he is an enemy.” Rna-karta pita satruh. Rna means debts. Karta means one who has committed so many debts and dies. A father...Instead of enjoying father’s property, he has to pay the father’s debts. So therefore that father is called enemy. Rna-karta pita satrur mata satrur vyabhicarini. “And mother, if she marries for the second time, she is enemy.” Rna-karta pita satrur mata satrur vyabhicarini, rupavati bharyah satruh. “And very beautiful wife, she is enemy.” And putrah satrur apanditah. “And if the son is a fool, rascal, he is enemy.” Four kinds of enemy in the family.

So I think I have spoken about my own life. You know that I was a married


man. So after being married, I did not like my wife. (laughter) Somehow or
other, I did not like. I must say she is very faithful, very everything...
Everyone praised. But I did not like, somehow or other. So I was preparing
for next marriage. Next marriage. Because in India, at that time it was
allowed, a man can marry more than one wife. Now the law is there. So my
father, he was a saintly person. So he called me one day and said, “My dear
boy, you are trying to marry again. I request you don’t do that. You do not
like your wife. That is a great fortune for you.” (laughter) So I gave up that idea of marrying. Yes. So now I am realizing my father’s blessing, yes, that if I would have been too much attached to my wife, then I could not have come to this position. That’s a fact. So by ethical point of view, from spiritual point of view, to become too much attached to wife is an impediment for spiritual advancement.

Therefore it is said that anyan, apayayat suran anyan mohinya mohayan


striya. Those who are sura, demigods, they were given the nectar, and others....Others means opposite number of suran, or asuran, the atheist or
the demons. They were enchanted by the beautiful form of Mohini. Krsna’s
another incarnation is female, Mohini, charming-so much charming that even
Lord Siva was after the girl. Lord Siva, he is supposed to be dhira, but he
became charmed, and he was after that girl.

So when Krsna... Krsna is already beautiful, but when He takes the shape of a woman, how beautiful He became, we can just imagine. Woman are naturally beautiful. They are called “fair sex.” So mohinya. So this Mohini, this attractive feature of woman, is advantage and disadvantage also. It requires simply handling. Then it is advantage. When Caitanya Mahaprabhu played this play, Mohini role...

Caitanya Mahaprabhu was playing drama. So Caitanya Mahaprabhu was very
beautiful. He took the part of this Mohini-murti. And she was dancing with
the pot of nectar. So all the devotees, they offered their obeisances, because Mohini-murti means God’s incarnation. So “My dear Lord, Your this murti, this form, this charming form, is somewhere raksasi.” Raksasi means, what is called, witches? Or the female demon. “And somewhere You are goddess of fortune.”

So the wife... Never mind. Generally, beautiful wife means everyone’s wife


is beautiful. Unless one sees his wife beautiful, he cannot become a householder. You see? I think I did not see my wife beautiful. Therefore I
had to take sannyasa. (laughter) But generally, every one sees his wife
beautiful. There was a great poet in Bengal, Bankima Candra. He used to say
that everyone has got right to say his wife beautiful. That means the wife
may be beautiful or not beautiful to others’ eye, but the husband’s eyes it
must be beautiful. Otherwise there cannot be husband. So the fact is that our householder life is not a platform of being attracted by woman or by wife. No. Wife is not accepted for sex satisfaction, being attracted by her. No. Therefore wife is called dharma-patni. Dharma-patni. Dharma-patni means a religious wife, or husband and wife should execute religious life,
spiritual cultivation. That is the purpose of becoming householder. Grhastha-asrama. Not that I become attracted by wife and I become absorbed in simply sex relation and forget my real duty, Krsna consciousness. That is dangerous.

So generally, if one’s wife becomes very beautiful, he forgets his real duty, Krsna consciousness, and he simply becomes a pet servant of the wife. That is the...Therefore Rupa Gosvami says, anasaktasya visayan yatharham upayunjatah. One should not be attracted for sex life. Yatharham upayunjatah. But does it mean that husband will not have sex. No. Yatharham. As it is required. As it required means sex life with wife should be performed only for begetting a Krsna conscious child. Nothing more. No more attraction. That life is better. That life means not only better. That is


the ideal life. Wife and husband, combination, both should make progress in
Krsna consciousness.

WOMAN, THEY ARE GENERALLY EQUIPPED WITH THE QUALITIES OF PASSION AND IGNORANCE. AND MEN ALSO MAY BE, BUT MAN CAN BE ELEVATED TO THE PLATFORM OF GOODNESS. WOMAN CANNOT BE. WOMAN CANNOT BE. THEREFORE IF THE HUSBAND IS NICE AND THE WOMAN FOLLOWS, WOMAN BECOMES FAITHFUL AND CHASTE TO THE HUSBAND, THEN THEIR BOTH LIFE BECOMES SUCCESSFUL. THERE ARE THREE QUALITIES OF NATURE: SATTVA, RAJAS, TAMAS. SO RAJAS, TAMAS GENERALLY, THAT IS THE QUALITY OF WOMAN. AND MAN CAN BECOME TO THE PLATFORM OF GOODNESS. THEREFORE INITIATION, BRAHMINICAL SYMBOLIC REPRESENTATION IS GIVEN TO THE MAN, NOT TO THE WOMAN. THIS IS THE THEORY. THEREFORE THE COMBINATION SHOULD BE THAT THE HUSBAND SHOULD BE FIRST-CLASS DEVOTEE, KRSNA CONSCIOUS, AND WOMAN SHOULD BE, WOMAN SHOULD BE DEVOTED TO THE HUSBAND, FAITHFUL, SO THAT SHE WOULD HELP THE HUSBAND TO MAKE PROGRESS IN KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS. THEN THEIR BOTH LIFE IS SUCCESSFUL. Otherwise, if the husband simply becomes captivated by the charming beauty of woman and engages himself in the sex life, then his life is lost, and the woman, they are less intelligent, unless they are guided by proper husband, her life is also lost. So those who are not demigods... Here it is said, apayayat suran. Sura-asura. Sura, those who are not developed to Krsna consciousness, they are asura. SO EVERY HUSBAND SHOULD BE A SURA. SURA MEANS DEVOTEE. And every woman should be religious. Religious means to become chaste, faithful to the husband. And the husband should become a devotee. Then both of them will make progress in Krsna consciousness and that is the perfection of life.




brahma-bhutah prasannatma
na socati na kanksati
samah sarvesu bhutesu
mad-bhaktim labhate param [Bg. 18.54]

So without being brahma-bhuta, that “I am spirit soul,” Krsna consciousness


does not become very perfect. If we are in the bodily concept of life, then it is rather difficult. It will take time. Because unless you come to the platform to understand that you are not this body, you are spirit soul, the actual devotional service does not begin. But to the neophyte student, the chance is given to develop this devotional service: sravanam kirtanam smaranam arcanam vandanam dasyam. The method is by constantly being engaged in devotional service, one becomes realized soul. God helps him, Krsna helps him. Then he becomes a perfect, liberated soul.

Liberated soul means hitva anyatha-rupam. Now we are working under the


designation of this body. Everyone is working under this designation of this
body. When we become above the designation of the body, that is our real,
constitutional position. So first of all, to realize that “I am not this body,” and the next stage is that “I am spirit soul, part and parcel of Krsna. Therefore as part and parcel is meant for giving service to the whole, therefore my constitutional position is to serve Krsna.” That is perfection of life.
Thank you very much. (end)
(Text COM:1834194) ----------------------------------------

4.22 The husband must be of high quality and gentle, etc. So the onus is on the man.
Text COM:1834636 (123 lines) [W1]
From: Shyamasundara ACBSP
Date: 07-Nov-98 21:56
To: GHQ
Comment: Text COM:1839875 by Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN)
Subject: SHA Woman instructed by husband/no brahmacarini ashrama
------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Maharajas, Prabhus and Mataji,

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.


Bhakta-vigna-vinasha, Narasimhadeva Bhagavan kijaya!

In the following selection from a lecture by Srila Prabhupada he explains


that in Vedic culture a woman doesn’t even go to a spiritual master for
instruction and education what to speak of school or brahmacarini ashrama.
Her intructor and teacher is her husband (father when young). BUT the
husband must be of high quality and gentle, etc. So the onus is on the man.
However, having said that, it would be crazy to marry a gentleman to a
modern woman. When I was in India it was comely said that SP said that if a
Western man married an Indian wife it would be good for his spiritual
advancement, but if an Indian man married a western woman it would impede his spiritual advancement. This, of course is a generalization, I know some Indian women who are hell on wheels, but this is perhaps the effect of living in the West and associating with so-called liberated women.

As an astrologer part of the whole scheme is to match persons up in such a


way that there is gentle dealing between the two. If the wife is rebellious,
as they are now trained to be, it would require a whole “Taming of the
Shrew” to tame her.

Another point to consider is what is Srila Prabhupada’s motivation for


discussing what Vedic Culture is like? “THAT IS NOT VEDIC SYSTEM. VEDIC
SYSTEM IS...” Was Srila Prabhupada a cultural anthropologist or Indologist
simply interested in old, dead cultures? Or was Srila Prabhupada teaching us
what it was that we should aspire to follow? Personally I think it is the later. But it appears that the purvas think it is the former.

Your humble servant


shyama
_____________________

Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.3.13 -- LA, September 18, 1972 -- 720918SB.LA


[…]
So senses are so strong. Balavan indriya-gramah. It is prohibited. What to
speak of others. Therefore, the common moral teachings and the Vedic
civilization is to accept any woman except his own wife as mother. Matrvat
para-daresu. Para-daresu. Everyone is supposed to be married. Dara means
wife. Para-daresu, other’s wife. It doesn’t matter if she is younger or older, but she should be treated as mother. Therefore it is the system in Vedic culture, as soon as one sees another woman, she (he) addresses her, “mother,” Mataji. Immediately, “mother.” That makes the relationship. The
woman treats the unknown man as son, and the unknown man treats the unknown woman as mother. This is Vedic civilization. So we should be very careful. In our society, you are all Godbrothers, Godsisters. Or those who are
married, they are like mothers. So you should be very careful. Then you will
remain dhira, sober. That is brahminical qualification, brahminical culture.
Not that “Because I have got facilities to intermingle with nice girls, so I
shall take advantage and exploit them.” Or the girls should take... No. Therefore our restriction: no illicit sex.

One has to become dhira. Then the question of God consciousness. Animals


cannot have God consciousness. Therefore it is specially mentioned dhiranam. Vartma. The path which He showed, that is meant for the dhira, not for the adhira. Dhiranam. And it is so nice that sarvasrama-namaskrtam. All asramas will appreciate and offer obeisances. ALL ASRAMA MEANS BRAHMACARI, GRHASTHA, VANAPRASTHA, AND SANNYASA. SO DEALING WITH WOMAN... ESPECIALLY INSTRUCTION ARE GIVEN TO MEN. ALL LITERATURES, ALL VEDIC LITERATURES, THEY ARE ESPECIALLY MEANT FOR INSTRUCTION TO THE MEN. WOMAN IS TO FOLLOW THE HUSBAND. THAT’S ALL. THE HUSBAND WILL GIVE INSTRUCTION TO THE WIFE. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS THE GIRL SHOULD GO TO SCHOOL TO TAKE BRAHMACARI-ASRAMA OR GO TO SPIRITUAL MASTER TO TAKE INSTRUCTION. THAT IS NOT VEDIC SYSTEM. VEDIC SYSTEM IS A MAN IS FULLY INSTRUCTED, AND WOMAN, GIRL, MUST BE MARRIED TO A MAN. EVEN THE MAN MAY HAVE MANY WIVES, POLYGAMY, STILL, EVERY WOMAN SHOULD BE MARRIED. AND SHE WOULD GET INSTRUCTION FROM THE HUSBAND. THIS IS VEDIC SYSTEM. WOMAN IS NOT ALLOWED TO GO TO SCHOOL, COLLEGE, OR TO THE SPIRITUAL MASTER. BUT HUSBAND AND WIFE, THEY CAN BE INITIATED. THAT IS VEDIC SYSTEM.

So dhiranam vartma. BECAUSE PEOPLE MUST BE FIRST OF ALL GENTLE. THEN TALK OF KRSNA AND GOD CONSCIOUSNESS. If he is animal, what he can understand? This is Vedic system. Dhiranam. Dhira means must be gentle, perfectly gentle. Must address all woman as “mother.” Matrvat para-daresu para-dravyesu lostravat. This is the training, that one should consider other’s wife as mother, and others’ money as like garbage in the street. Nobody cares for it. Similarly, one’s other’s money should not be touched. Even it is somebody has forgotten his purse, moneybag on the street, nobody will touch it. Let the man come back and take it. That is civilization. Para dravyesu lostravat, atmavat sarva-bhutesu. And treating all other living entities as oneself. If somebody pinches me, I feel pain. Why shall I pinch other? If somebody cuts my throat, I become so sorry or so aggrieved. Why shall I cut the throat of other animals? This is civilization. This is Vedic civilization. And not that go on killing animals like anything and hunt upon the woman, topless woman, make business. This is not civilization. This is not human civilization.

Therefore it is called dhiranam. Those who are sober, for them. Those who
are rascals, not for them. The brahmacari, grhastha, vanaprastha sarvasrama,
asrama, this is meant for the gentle class, not for the rascals. First of all, training period as brahmacari. This brahmacari, he is taught. He is taught to address all women as “mother.” The brahmacari goes to collect alms from door to door. Small boys. So how do they address? “Mother, kindly give us some alms.” So immediately the household wife should come and give them.
They will collect like that, for spiritual master. So if a boy is taught...Just like our these children are being taught chanting Hare Krsna. They are chanting. They cannot forget throughout life. Similarly, if a brahmacari is taught from childhood, from boyhood address all woman as “mother,” he cannot see otherwise. “S(he) is my mother.” I REMEMBER, IT IS AN EXAMPLE. LONG AGO, SAY, IN 1925, LONG AGO, SO WE WERE IN A CINEMA HOUSE. SO MY ELDEST SON, AS SOON AS HE WOULD SEE ONE WOMAN IN THE PICTURE, “HERE IS ANOTHER MOTHER! HERE IS ANOTHER MOTHER!” (LAUGHTER) HE WOULD CRY. BECAUSE A SMALL CHILD, HE DOES NOT KNOW ANY WOMAN EXCEPT MOTHER. HE KNOWS EVERYONE AS “MY MOTHER.” SO IF WE TRAIN FROM THE CHILDHOOD THAT “YOU SHOULD TREAT ALL WOMAN AS MOTHER,” THEN WHERE IS THE QUESTION OF ANOMALIES? NO. THERE IS NO QUESTION. SO ONE SHOULD BE TRAINED FROM THE VERY BEGINNING HOW TO BECOME GENTLE. From the very beginning if one is taught to become ungentle, uncontrolled of senses, how at the end he can become gentle? And if the people are not gentle, how you can expect peace and prosperity? Therefore we see in your country, every house: “Beware of dog. Don’t come here.” Because... What is that? Because they cannot trust anybody. Anybody.

So this is not advancement of civilization. If you want to know what is


civilization, you have to learn here: dhiranam. In the Bhagavata the description is there. So actually, Vedic civilization is meant for the most
gentle, highly advanced, not for the cats and dogs.
Thank you very much. (end)(Text COM:1834636) -----------------------------------------
The point of this text is that though we do not condone divorce it is not that we go around calling all divorced women “prostitutes” as is the accusation of the feminists.

4.23

Text COM:1492675 (117 lines)


From: Shyamasundara ACBSP
Date: 08-Jul-98 21:08
To: Dharma of Women
Comment: Text COM:1492866 by WWW: Vyasapada (Dasa) ACBSP (Saranagati - CAN)
Comment: Text COM:1499849 by Nitya-trpta (dd) ACBSP (Krsna Vision) (DK)
Subject: Historical perspective and practical thinking
------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Prabhus,

___o_ (dandavats)

I have read with interest the last 30 posts to this forum to get a flavor of
what is going on. I would like to make a few observations if I may:

Being a student of history I view everything from the historical perspective


which of course implies looking at things with a long view. Even Krsna in
the BG 15 chapter advises that we should "see with the vision of eternity."
Not that He is advocating that we study history, but at least not be too
short sighted and get caught up in the present.

From the historical perspective ISKCON is in its infancy and going through


natural struggles. If you compare what happened in Christianity or
especially Islam (they had major civil wars with 10s of thousands dying
violent deaths) shortly after the departure of their leader ISKCON is not
doing too badly. I don't mean to say that things are going great but it
could be much worse.

ISKCON is a pioneering movement. Srila Prabhupada transplanted Vedic culture


on a new land. As in any pioneering effort there are many sacrifices and
MANY casualties. If we consider how many people died in the attempt to
establish colonies in North America you would appreciate the amount of
sacrifice it takes to establish something new. So ISKCON and devotees are
such pioneers in a strange land. We have no cultural background to speak of,
yet our task is to establish Varnashrama Dharma, the most sophisticated
cultural and societal framework, natural and God made no doubt, but complex
as well.

Our only guidance is SP and his books. Our own cultural baggage doesn't help


it only hinders. So is it any wonder that many devotees got into marriages
that were disasters. At first GBC and TPs put any boy and girl together.
This was an arranged marriage they thought. I call them deranged marriages.
For a long time I was resentful of these happenings, but then I realized,
what else could these persons have done? Just consider the TPs and GBCs then
were in their 20's, hardly wizened sages with vast experience. Also they
didn't have much choice for selections. It was not that they had millions of
candidates to choose from; just a handful of devotees to marry each other.

Arranged marriage is not one done by the GBC or TP but one done by the


parents who have a deep vested interest in the outcome.

ISKCON and its devotees are like the first men who hit the beaches on D-day.


The carnage is terrible, the casualties are high, but by their supreme
sacrifice they gain a precious foothold on which others can build. Many,
many devotees have paid the very high price of bad marriages and divorce.
But Krsna doesn't forget the sacrifice that they made in their attempt to
please Him against such impossible odds. They had no social infrastructure as
is found in India for arranged marriage.

However now that is changing. The parents in ISKCON don't want their


children to suffer as they did, and they take a lot of interest in the
child's future. So I am hopeful of a better future for the children. And
they will be even more careful with their children. And just as with the
pioneers, with each succeeding generation things improve more and more. And
just see that after a few hundred years America, which had been the grave of
many a pioneer, is now the world's greatest superpower.

I have often heard that SP said that it will not be our children but our


grandchildren who will be able to put into practice Varnashrama Dharma. We
are just like the cannon fodder that fertilizes the ground with our blood,
but it is not in vain.

Taking that perspective I would like to suggest that:

We take a more proactive stance in making things better for our children. By
that I mean giving them the tools and education so that they can do a better
job than we did.

That we be less harsh with devotees who have been divorced etc. If you only


invite devotees who have only been married once to your party you may find
that you will be alone. If you were take a actual census of how many
devotees have been divorced you should expect to see something in the order
of 70%-90%. Are you going to turn your nose up at them? We have to be
practical and apply "kala-desa-patra": what were the times, and the place
and the circumstances surrounding their marital dilemmas. I have outlined the
scenario above. The situation could not have been worse if you had planned
it. It is not surprising therefor that so many failed. What is surprising is
that some actually made it. For that we are grateful.

As has been pointed out there are many exemplary devotees who are remarried.


A close friend of mine has been married 3 times (his wife twice) and is a
fallen sannyasi to boot, but if I mention his name I think that everyone
would recognize him as a sincere devotee worthy of great respect and a
source of inspiration. In fact many devotees who knew him way back say that
he is a much nicer and better devotee now than ever. Of course he is also a
very humble devotee.

But if someone puts themselves up to be icons of virtue and have "holier


than thou" attitudes about others then it is natural to look into their
antecedents and their past marital difficulties and peccadilloes. This was
the case of Romaharshana Suta, whom, when he insulted Balarama, it was
remembered that he was of lowly origins.

So let us see things with a different perspective. As SP would say, what's


done is done, now let us be Krsna Conscious in whatever situation we find
ourselves in. If however we use someone else’s misfortune, and it is a great
misfortune, to base our superiority, then we may be in for an unpleasant
surprise later on down the road when we ourselves have our own misfortunes.
As an astrologer I have seen the wheel of fate turn in many unexpected ways
for people who were riding high, only to tumble headfirst into the mud.

So let our superiority be based on presenting a superior program.

This is not to say that I advocate divorce. In my practice I never do such a
thing. What I am advocating is taking a long view of the situation and getting
the right perspective, and being careful not to alienate someone who is
actually an ally simply because of a past marital fiasco. Remember, even
though the vast majority of ISKCON devotees have had divorces they still
support divorceless marriage as the ideal, they just didn't have the ways or
means of achieving that goal. Our task should be on providing such ways and
means so that the next wave that hits the beachheads will have fewer
casualties.

Your humble servant


shyamasundara dasa
4.24 Appreciation from women on this point

Text COM:1492866 (11 lines)


From: WWW: Vyasapada (Dasa) ACBSP (Saranagati - CAN)
Date: 09-Jul-98 03:34
To: Dharma of Women [915]
Reference: Text COM:1492675 by Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Sylva, NC - USA)
Comment: Text COM:1493853 by Govardhan-lila (dd) JPS (Atlanta, GA - USA)
Subject: Historical perpective and practical thinking
------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Syamasundara das.

Pamho, AGTSP.

Having read your post, I felt great relief. Wisdom, is a pearl of rare


quality. Thankyou very very much, for sharing your wisdom here. I for one
felt greatly inspired and benefited.

Your fallen servant


Pracetana dasi
(Text COM:1492866) -----------------------------------------
4.25

Text COM:1499849 (15 lines)


From: Nitya-trpta (dd) ACBSP (Krsna Vision) (DK)
Date: 11-Jul-98 17:30
To: Dharma of Women [964]
Reference: Text COM:1492675 by Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Sylva, NC - USA)
Subject: Historical perpective and practical thinking
------------------------------------------------------------
> From the historical perspective ISKCON is in its infancy and going through
> natural struggles. .....
>
> ISKCON is a pioneering movement. Srila Prabhupada transplanted Vedic
> culture on a new land. As in any pioneering effort there are many
> sacrifices and MANY causualties. If we consider how many people died in
> the attempt to establish colonies in North America you would appreaciate
> the amount of sacrifice it takes to establish something new. ......

and the whole text. Sadhu, sadhu !!


Section 5

Favorable Comments about

Mother Malati dd Excluded by “Ardhabuddhi Dasa”

& Why We Want to Speak Nicely

_______________________________________________



Months before the GHQ forum started members were already concerned about using imflammatory language.
5.1
Letter COM:1516991 (46 lines)
From: Shyamasundara ACBSP
Date: 18-Jul-98 01:52
To: xyz- USA)
Reference: Text COM:1511592 by XYZ
Subject: Good Form
------------------------------------------------------------
> Dear Shyamasundara prabhu,
>
> Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
>
> I just wanted to say your posts on misanthropic mayavada was absolutely
> smashing, literally. My husband appreciated it as well. I also wanted to
> say that although I personally am not offended by the term “feminazi”,
> actually I am amused by it, but if someone were to say it was not such a
> pleasant word, I would have to agree. :-) I would not object to your use
> of the word, but I might say it’s a bit.......antagonistic? Of course, if that is
> the intention, then right on! You get ‘em, you are absolutely qualified as
> your posts indicate.

Thank you for both of your appreciation. There is a lot more to say


philosophically but I think I exposed the greatest fallacy. As you may have
noted I didn’t use the word “feminazi” once during the whole article. I
already had second thoughts about it which is why I posted inquires about
objections. Such words simply indicate anger. There is a lot to be angry
about, it is difficult to see the philosophy twisted by junior devotees. But
simply to be angry is not enough. Anger begets anger. There will not be
understanding through anger so I decided to drop it of my own accord. Of
course that doesn’t mean I going to be a milk-toast. I try to present this
clearly and to the point, and as penetratingly as possible. Unfortunately I am going to have to leave the forum because I am simply overworked with other projects.

> I also had one other question regarding you being an astrologer: Do you


> currently still do that for devotees and is there some sort of charge?
> Forgive my utter ignorance, I know nothing about it. Please let me know if
> you have an opportunity. Thank you and Hare Krsna.
>
> your servant,
> xyz

I have attached some files which give more information about Vedic Astrology. It includes my devotee prices (karmis have different rates so if


you tell a karmi don’t quote them the same prices), and two essays on the
subject, one for the GBC the other for consumers. Let me know what you
think.

yhs
shyama


(Text COM:1516991) -----------------------------------------

5.2 HH Bhakti Vikasa Swami’s comments on Mother Malati dd
Note that in the very beginning, four days before the GHQ forum was even created, Maharaja guides us to higher consciousness--not for some strategic reason, as “Ardhabuddhi Dasa” claims, but because that is his sattvic nature. Maharja advised us to control our speech because it is natural for saintly persons to give such sage advice. Some GHQ members were not always able to act upon that advice, but since it was in fact our objective, we often reminded each other to adhere to higher principles. Please see Basu Ghosh Prabhu’s comments, agreeing with Maharaja’s points.
Letter COM:1711502 (13 lines)
From: Bhakti Vikasa Swami
Date: 23-Sep-98 05:42
To: Rasananda Swami (USA) [2812]
To: btb@georgian.net (sent: 23-Sep-98 05:47)
Cc: Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN) [6014] (received: 23-Sep-98
Cc: Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP [4945]
Cc: Krishna Kirti (das) HDG (Baltimore - USA) [638] (received: 23-Sep-98
Reference: Text COM:1703354 by
Comment: Text COM:1714326 by Shyamasundara ACBSP
Comment: Text COM:1715657 by Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN)
Subject: Re: malati’s response
------------------------------------------------------------
From my experience, Malati Mataji is a very nice, humble and sincere devotee. Not an anti male chauvanist pig type. Could be entered into dialog
with.

I feel that the GHQ presentation should be high on reasoned argument and


sastric quotes, and low on verbiage and invective. Keep a cool head. Let the
feminazis do all the name calling they like, but don’t respond in similar tone. Make strong points, but be dignified. Don’t let this descend into a scrap. Never insinuate that the opposite party are not devotees or bring their sincerity into question. Their understanding of and adherence to Srila
Prabhupada’s instructions has to be brought into question. They have points
that need answering. For instance, Srila Prabhupada did send his lady
disciples out for book distribution.
(Text COM:1711502) -----------------------------------------

5.3 GHQ conceived as a think tank.
Letter COM:1715657 (28 lines)
From: Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN)
Date: 24-Sep-98 16:06
To: Bhakti Vikasa Swami [8560]
To: Rasananda Swami (USA) [2824] (forwarded: 24-Sep-98 16:18)
To: btb@georgian.net (sent: 24-Sep-98 16:18)
Cc: Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP [5004]
Cc: Krishna Kirti (das) HDG (Baltimore - USA) [642]
Reference: Text COM:1711502 by Bhakti Vikasa Swami
Comment: Text COM:1716208 by Krishna Kirti (das) HDG (Baltimore - USA)
Subject: Re: malati’s response
------------------------------------------------------------
> From my experience, Malati Mataji is a very nice, humble and sincere
> devotee. Not an anti male chauvanist pig type. Could be entered into
> dialog with.

Agreed.


> I feel that the GHQ presentation should be high on reasoned argument and
> sastric quotes, and low on verbiage and invective. Keep a cool head.

As I understand it Maharaj, GHQ is going to be a think tank with the mandate to prepare a paper with proposals to the GBC to check apasiddhanta in the form of “feminism” in ISKCON. So...

> Let the feminazis do all the name calling they like, but don’t respond in
> similar tone. Make strong points, but be dignified. Don’t let this descend
> into a scrap. Never insinuate that the opposite party are not devotees or
> bring their sincerity into question. Their understanding of and adherence
> to Srila Prabhupada’s instructions has to be brought into question. They
> have points that need answering. For instance, Srila Prabhupada did send
> his lady disciples out for book distribution.

Why should it degenerate into a scrap? But yes, ad hominem attack must be


avoided & philosophy and the issues must be kept “up front”.

However, without mentioning names (will this be possible?) we should bring


into “light” the apasiddhantas & their repercussions. And go all out to
root them out!

(Text COM:1715657) -----------------------------------------



5.4
Letter COM:1714326 (27 lines)
From: Shyamasundara ACBSP
Date: 24-Sep-98 00:01
To: Bhakti Vikasa Swami
To: Rasananda Swami (USA)
To: btb@georgian.net
Cc: Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN)
Cc: Krishna Kirti (das) HDG (Baltimore - USA)
Reference: Text COM:1711502 by Bhakti Vikasa Swami
Comment: Text COM:1714977 by Bhakti Vikasa Swami
Subject: Re: malati’s response
------------------------------------------------------------
> From my experience, Malati Mataji is a very nice, humble and sincere
> devotee. Not an anti male chauvanist pig type. Could be entered into dialog > with.
>
> I feel that the GHQ presentation should be high on reasoned argument and
> sastric quotes, and low on verbiage and invective. Keep a cool head. Let
> the feminazis do all the name calling they like, but don’t respond in similar
> tone. Make strong points, but be dignified. Don’t let this descend into a
> scrap. Never insinuate that the opposite party are not devotees or bring
> their sincerity into question. Their understanding of and adherence to
> Srila Prabhupada’s instructions has to be brought into question. They have
> points that need answering. For instance, Srila Prabhupada did send his
> lady disciples out for book distribution.

Very good points Maharaja.

It is easy for me to get caught up in anger and its offspring. (Perhaps others have a similar problem?) So I will need you to keep me from falling into Vaisnava aparadha.

That is why it will be important for devotees like BVS to read our material


before it is presented.

For a start we should simply call the other side “our opponents” or use the


Sanskrit term “purvapashin”, that is, those who present the antithesis. That
will help to keep us more dignified. They are not our enemies, after all,
when this is over we will have to work with them.
(Text COM:1714326) -----------------------------------------

5.5
Letter COM:1714977 (38 lines)
From: Bhakti Vikasa Swami
Date: 24-Sep-98 10:47
Comment: Text COM:1719236 by Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN)
Subject: Re: malati’s response
------------------------------------------------------------
“Purvapakshin” is the best word, as it brings images of a dignified, rather
than purely political, opponent. Often, the other party have made most
undignified attacks (I was the subject of one of them, on Chakra); but our
hope should be that “amanina manadena” on our part will sober them up. We
should bring discussion up from the emotional level and oppose them on
sastric grounds, on which we are certain to prevail. Slanging matches are fit for uneducated village women. We can’t win on that level.

I’m not suggesting that our presentation should not be strong. But the sastric quotes are in themselves so heavy that we hardly need to add our own expletives. For instance, using Srila Prabhupada’s definition of a prostitute, we can (in polite terms) question the status of re-married Iskcon women. This is certain to get the feminazis highly riled, as they are mostly remarried divorcees, but we can simply cooly again present the Prabhupada quote to them, and not allow them to obfuscate the point with their name-calling.

Here’s an example of what kind of response we can expect (Mad Radha re Basu Ghosh):

> I want nothing to do with these over-zealous, arch conservative,


> backwards, women-hating, oppressive people who give ISKCON a bad name. > I’ve engaged in too many discussions with them already.
> Tired of it. Sick of it.

We can deduce from this that they don’t want to discuss, no doubt because


they are exposed each time. Thus the obfuscatory invectives.

GHQ needs to present a comprehensive, balanced presentation that answers


every claim of the feminazis with ample evidence from guru (Srila
Prabhupada), sadhu and shastra. Let the feminazis know that we want to
respect them as our worshipable mothers, but that they cannot expect or
demand respect if they insist on taking the role of prostitutes.

From the story of Mohini murti we find that even the demons did not want to enter into stri-vivada (argument with a woman). Might it not be better to


discuss with the husbands of these women (if they have husbands, or even if
they are on their fourth husband)?
(Text COM:1714977) -----------------------------------------

5.6
Letter COM:1715993 (87 lines)
From: Shyamasundara ACBSP
Date: 24-Sep-98 12:56
To: Bhakti Vikasa Swami
To: Rasananda Swami (USA)
To: btb@georgian.net
Cc: Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN)
Cc: Hari Sauri (das) ACBSP
Cc: Jasomatinandan (das) ACBSP (Gujarat - IN)
Cc: Prithu (das) ACBSP
Cc: Krishna Kirti (das) HDG (Baltimore - USA)
Reference: Text COM:1714977 by Bhakti Vikasa Swami
Comment: Text COM:1720595 by Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN)
Subject: Strong response, but dignified.
------------------------------------------------------------

> “Purvapakshin” is the best word, as it brings images of a dignified, rather


> than purely political, opponent. Often, the other party have made most
> undignified attacks (I was the subject of one of them, on Chakra); but our
> hope should be that “amanina manadena” on our part will sober them up.
> We should bring discussion up from the emotional level and oppose them
> on sastric grounds, on which we are certain to prevail. Slanging matches are
> fit for uneducated village women. We can’t win on that level.

Srila Prabhupada said that when a first class man has an argument with a


second class man (woman in this case) he becomes a third class man. So as
you say we have to do our utmost to keep this at a high level. It is important because our main audience will be the GBC and other devotees. It is likely that we will never satisfy some of these women, who have become severely contaminated by various doctrines or are not serious devotees in the first place (Mad Radha comes to mind). But if we make a very sober PRESENTATION to the GBC and others it will have a powerful impact. It will
be the first time that they have heard the other side. Since the vast majority of devotees respect sastric presentations it will have a devastating effect on the doctrines of the purvapaksin.

Aside from that, taking the high road will be good for our own consciousness.

> I’m not suggesting that our presentation should not be strong.

I didn’t think you were. I’m not prepared to back down an inch. But I do


want to be as effective as possible so I agree that a dignified presentation
is the way to go. Strong but dignified.

>But the sastric quotes are in themselves so heavy that we hardly need to


>add our own expletives.

Why try to hold a candle to the Sun?

> For instance, using Srila Prabhupada’s definition of a prostitute, we can (in
> polite terms) question the status of re-married Iskcon women. This is
> certain to get the feminazis highly riled, as they are mostly remarried
> divorcees, but we can simply cooly again present the Prabhupada quote to
> them, and not allow them to obfuscate the point with their name-calling.
>
> Here’s an example of what kind of response we can expect (Mad Radha re
> Basu Ghosh):
>
> > I want nothing to do with these over-zealous, arch conservative,
> > backwards, women-hating, oppressive people who give ISKCON a bad
> > name. I’ve engaged in too many discussions with them already.
> > Tired of it. Sick of it.
>
> We can deduce from this that they don’t want to discuss, no doubt because
> they are exposed each time. Thus the obfuscatory invectives.

Again our real audience I believe will be the GBC and general devotees so if


they see something nice it will give many devotees ammunition to fight the
feminazis.

> GHQ needs to present a comprehensive, balanced presentation that answers


> every claim of the feminazis with ample evidence from guru (Srila
> Prabhupada), sadhu and shastra.

I believe that Jivan Mukta and Sita have compiled all the claims and theories of the purvapakshins, at least I hope they have. We can then use that as a departure point.

> Let the feminazis know that we want to respect them as our worshipable
> mothers, but that they cannot expect or demand respect if they insist on
> taking the role of prostitutes.
>
> From the story of Mohini murti we find that even the demons did not want
> to enter into stri-vivada (argument with a woman). Might it not be better
> to discuss with the husbands of these women (if they have husbands, or
> even if they are on their fourth husband)?

I don’t that is possible, we have to deal with them.

I am just wondering why it is taking so long to set up the forum? Both Sitaji and I have emailed Raktambara but gotten no response. I am a little worried. I recently got an email from a HK disciple in Korsnas who described
that scene in very dreary terms. The devotees are very depressed, I wonder
how that will effect those that operate COM? What would happen if COM went down permenently because the sysops were disillusioned??
(Text COM:1715993) -----------------------------------------

5.7
Letter COM:1719236 (49 lines)
From: Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN)
Date: 26-Sep-98 00:12
To: Bhakti Vikasa Swami [8607] (received: 26-Sep-98 02:46)
To: Rasananda Swami (USA) [2842] (forwarded: 26-Sep-98 00:20)
To: Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College - USA) [5063]
To: btb@georgian.net (sent: 26-Sep-98 00:18)
Cc: Krishna Kirti (das) HDG (Baltimore - USA) [664] (received:
26-Sep-98 00:42)
Reference: Text COM:1714977 by Bhakti Vikasa Swami
Subject: Re: malati’s response
------------------------------------------------------------

> “Purvapakshin” is the best word, as it brings images of a dignified, rather


> than purely political, opponent. Often, the other party have made most
> undignified attacks (I was the subject of one of them, on Chakra); but our
> hope should be that “amanina manadena” on our part will sober them up.
> We should bring discussion up from the emotional level and oppose them
> on sastric grounds, on which we are certain to prevail. Slanging matches are
> fit for uneducated village women. We can’t win on that level.

Excellent advice. Sadhu!

> I’m not suggesting that our presentation should not be strong. But the
> sastric quotes are in themselves so heavy that we hardly need to add our
> own expletives. For instance, using Srila Prabhupada’s definition of a
> prostitute, we can (in polite terms) question the status of remarried
> Iskcon women. This is certain to get the feminazis highly riled, as they are
> mostly remarried divorcees, but we can simply cooly again present the
> Prabhupada quote to them, and not allow them to obfuscate the point with
> their name-calling.

Sadhu!


> Here’s an example of what kind of response we can expect (Mad Radha re
> Basu Ghosh):
>
> > I want nothing to do with these over-zealous, arch conservative,
> > backwards, women-hating, oppressive people who give ISKCON a bad
> > name. I’ve engaged in too many discussions with them already.
> > Tired of it. Sick of it.
>
> We can deduce from this that they don’t want to discuss, no doubt because
> they are exposed each time. Thus the obfuscatory invectives.

The fact is that she DID avoid a discussion of the issue raised.

> GHQ needs to present a comprehensive, balanced presentation that answers
> every claim of the feminazis with ample evidence from guru (Srila
> Prabhupada), sadhu and shastra. Let the feminazis know that we want to
> respect them as our worshipable mothers, but that they cannot expect or
> demand respect if they insist on taking the role of prostitutes.

Yes.


> From the story of Mohini murti we find that even the demons did not want
> to enter into stri-vivada (argument with a woman). Might it not be better
> to discuss with the husbands of these women (if they have husbands, or
> even if they are on their fourth husband)?

Hypothetical. Otherwise there wouldn’t be an ISKCON Women’s convention at Alachua.


(Text COM:1719236) -----------------------------------------

5.8
Text COM:1732526 (7 lines)
From: Bhakti Vikasa Swami
Date: 30-Sep-98 10:18
To: GHQ [19]
Reference: Text COM:1729912 by Krishna Kirti (das) HDG (Baltimore - USA)
Subject: KK for “Vyasa”
------------------------------------------------------------
> In my view, it seems that replying privately to her and others of her ilk
> is a waste of time.

Shyamasundara Pr made this important point, so let’s note it again: the


feminists are NOT the people we are arguing with. They are unarguable with
because their minds are closed. Our pitch is towards those in the middle, and especially Iskcon leaders in the middle.
(Text COM:1732526) -----------------------------------------

Note that only three days after the GHQ conference starts, one member is admonishing the others not to use certain words. Thus, such words were banned practically from the beginning:
5.9
Text COM:1737230 (15 lines)
From: Shyamasundara ACBSP
Date: 01-Oct-98 20:52
To: GHQ
Reference: Text COM:1729912 by Krishna Kirti (das) HDG (Baltimore - USA)
Subject: BVKS Advice
------------------------------------------------------------

> If you want me to, I can compile the collected points and data. I’m


> soon getting a Prabhupada Folio anyway--I am being viciously attacked by
> the Mad Radha and some slightly lighter shades of ISKCON liberalism on
> another conference.

Maharaja made some good points about not descending into the cat fight mode of the women. Thus we should not address them as “feminazis” as it may slip out and the term is inflammatory to them as well as to us (makes us more angry). Similarly, even though I coined the name “Mad Radha” we should not use it in this forum just so that we discipline our own minds against the raja & tama guna.


(Text COM:1737230) -----------------------------------------


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