4.8 Women do have legitimate issues. The men are at fault.
Text COM:1748103 (112 lines)
From: Internet: ameyatma (ACBSP) Date: 06-Oct-98 11:51
To: GHQ 
Comment: Text COM:1750547 by Krishna Kirti (das) HDG (Baltimore - USA)
Comment: Text COM:1750699 by Shyamasundara ACBSP
Subject: DIS: Women Do Have Legitimate Issues
I think another goal of our effort should also be to recognize and properly
address the issues many women have had which have led them to form or
become favorable to this women’s ministry and now equal rights issues.
Looking at in from their perspective: ISKCON has been prominently led by
men. And ISKCON’s leadership has failed over the years in many ways.
Dealing specifically with their issues, ISKCON has failed to provide stable
or substantive ‘protection’ for the women in general. This is true in many
And many of these women have been abused in marriages that did not work
out. They have a hard time seeing these things as their own fault, that it
may be due to a lack of being submissive, which is what Prabhupada said is
the actual cause of most divorces in the West. Since these things are not openly or widely preached, the women come to the hard and fast conclusion that their abuses were caused, again, by useless men in the post of authority
with so many issues, the guru issues, the lack of properly placed and strong guidance by the GBC, etc., they have reached the conclusion that the root source of all these problems is due to the leaders being men. The real root source is that the men were not fully self-realized, were not fully qualified, but there is no evidence that points to the idea that these women are any better qualified then their male counter parts. Rather, we all grew up from the same mleccha culture of the modern times. If the men have blown it, how much more the women will blow it. But, that is NOT their thinking. Their thinking is that the men blew it, now it is up to the women to save the day....
The whole women’s issue has arisen because there are legitimate complaints
that the women have not been protected properly.
I say our effort must therefore deal with whole issue, we must also address
the legitimate issues concerning the women. Otherwise simply attacking
their efforts to help the situation and injustices of the past by removing
them only, and not providing any formal and formative - substantive,
solutions to the real problems will be only a hollow attempt. We need to
fill up our effort with the weight of proper - shastric directed - solutions to the real underlying social problems.
Protection: Protection for unwed (never previously wed) girls is marriage. Not just marriage, but marriage to a qualified man who can proper ‘protect’ and guide the girl.
I have written a book on training for the girls. Home is the domain of the
wife. The man’s work is with the world in general. Teacher, Government,
Businessman, Laborer assistant, all work for and in the society in general.
But home is the domain of the women. So, most insruction on how to make
family life successful and peaceful is given to women. But, men also need
some good instruction, so I also want to write a smaller section on training for brahmacaris on how to make good KC husbands. Brahmacaris must be trained how to become responsible, how to respect women, how to treat them lovingly like a child and care for them (obviously woman is to be
known as maya, her association is to be avoided by brahmacari, but that
does not mean she is to be disrespected, to be spit on or looked down on.
No, woman are to be highly respected and cared for, but for the celibate
men, they are to be respectfully avoided). That training is needed, because as much as there is a feminist movement in the West, there is also a lack on the men’s side to be caring responsible husbands.
Then, for women who are married, their husband’s must provide protection.
But, just as we have our child-abuse network set up, we need to set up a way for women with grievances to be heard by the authorities. I was told
that Ram Chandra set aside one or two hours every morning to hear from any citizen who had some problem. They could approach Sri Ram directly and he would listen and do what he could to solve the problem. This means, possibly, marriage counseling. But, the training for the counselor should be how well he understands dharma, and the roles of men and women in accordance with the laws of Dharma and Srila Prabhupad’s teachings, not that he has had ‘professional’ training by non-devotees in so-called equal-rights or new-age or Freudian concepts of marriage counseling.
Then, for whatever reason a woman is living without her husband, divorced,
widowed, whatever, ISKCON needs to provide women’s ashrams where such women can go, along with their children, and be given some facility and
protection. One older mataji, Devahuti, told me she had been given direct orders by Prabhupada to do this, and she gave me what short details
Prabhupada gave her to do this.
So, protection of women must be addressed by us. But, protection of what?
Her CHASTITY. So these things are needed. Education and training in what is chastity and why it is needed in society. Then facilities for properly protecting their chastity.
If the leadership, and men, in ISKCON had provided proper protection for
the women, they would not complain. The fact that women are complaining
like mad is due to the fact the men have not properly protected them. But
the solution is not to hand over leadership to them. That Shastra condemns. That will not solve anything, but simply cause many times more problems.
So, that part we agree to deal with. The other part is to address these issues.
I will take some of my essays on Chastity and protection, etc., IF and when I get time, and make some arguments as to how to address the issues of
training and education of both men and women on this issue of chastity -
and why it is needed.
Also we should have some solid guidelines for starting proper women’s
ashrams to give protections to the widows and single mothers, etc. We must take up the problem of making women feel so well taken care of they will have no complaints and will then respect such men’s leadership. Such proper respect of leadership is EARNED by our proper and good deeds, not dictated by word and enforced by the sword alone. Let us EARN the proper respect for male leadership.
ys ameyatma das firstname.lastname@example.org
Chk out my web page at: http://home.earthlink.net/~kgrafx
4.9 Agreement with Ameyatma Text COM:1750699 (1 line)
From: Shyamasundara ACBSP
Date: 06-Oct-98 21:16
To: ameyatma (ACBSP) Reference: Text COM:1748103 by Internet: ameyatma (ACBSP)
Subject: DIS: Women Do Have Legitimate Issues
Sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu!
(Text COM:1750699) -----------------------------------------
4.10 Text COM:1750547 (31 lines)
From: Krishna Kirti (das) HDG (Baltimore - USA)
Date: 07-Oct-98 00:28
To: GHQ 
To: ameyatma (ACBSP) Reference: Text COM:1748103 by Internet: ameyatma (ACBSP)
Subject: DIS: Women Do Have Legitimate Issues: What is your proposal?
> ISKCON has been prominently led by men. And ISKCON’s leadership has
> failed over the years in many ways. Dealing specifically with their issues,
> ISKCON has failed to provide stable or substantive ‘protection’ for the
> women in general. This is true in many ways.
In the West (or should I say among western devotees), devotees change
spouses almost as often as they change underwear. I cannot say definitely
that devotee women wrongly leave husbands as much as devotee men wrongly leave wives. To my knowledge, no such statistics have been undertaken. Experience gained through social intercourse (to me) would suggest that as a class, women are as much at fault for this as are the men. But one thing is sure, they are completely convinced that wherever there is a failed marriage, it is the man’s fault:
> Feminism has nothing to do with pornography or adultery. It’s men who
> keep the sex industry going (thus “Johns” and not “Janes”). [Madhusdani-Radha dd]
Usually, personal affairs such as marriage (after it happens) are not interfered in by any temporal authority. If a marriage breaks up, the temple (ISKCON) has nothing to do with it.
Now, if ISKCON will have something to do with it, then they will have to (1)
judge who is right and who is wrong; and (2) take action. It would be
difficult to imagine what kind of action would be taken, considering that
Srila Prabhupada even personally attended the marriages of some of his
disciples who had previously taken sannyasa. But the institution itself
playing a such a direct role in people’s marriages would be a radical change
in previous policy. Do you think such a thing will work?
4.11 This text shows that Mother Pranada doesn’t know the difference between Vedic culture and modern Indian mores. Ameyatma straightens her out in the next text. (Text COM:1785390) -----------------------------------------
(Text COM:1787396) -----------------------------------------
Text COM:1786000 (43 lines)
From: Internet: email@example.com
Date: 20-Oct-98 14:04
To: GHQ 
To: IWC (Internat. Women’s Conference) 
To: (International) Women’s Ministry 
To: Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN)  (received: 23-Oct-98
To: Krishna Kirti (das) HDG (Baltimore - USA)  (received 20-Oct-
To: Madhusudani Radha (dd) JPS (Mill Valley - USA)  (received:
To: Sita (dd) GKG (Back to Basics) (Ontario - CAN)  (received: 20-
For: DMW (Dharma of Men and Women)
Subject: Re: Women on the GBC-- a few questions
Dear Anandini Prabhu,
Just a quick point regarding your recent exchange with Basu Ghosh:
You mention that abuse is a moral issue and goes on quite a bit in
India. Basu Ghosh Prabhu disagrees with you.
Anti-cult organizations in the US and Europe watch closely how ISKCON treats our women and children. ISKCON is known around the world for not treating it’s women and children very well. At least that’s a shared a opinion by many. And because of this, ISKCON is a prime target by these organizations. Those devotees in Europe know the very real threat of the
entire movement being completely shut down and this was one of the main
issues for our detractors.
According to findings by the largest anti-cult group here in the US, Hindu women are the MOST abused women in the entire world. More abused than any other cultural group on this planet (even those groups traditionally known for subordination of women like Iranians, Chinese, etc.)
Just in case that didn’t sink in look at it again:
Hindu women are the MOST abused women in the entire world.
Findings state that the reason this is so is that the Hindu women are the most likely NOT TO SAY ANYTHING ABOUT THEIR ABUSIVE SITUATION. Their training, as Basu Ghosh highlights is to stay with the husband at all costs, be submissive, etc.
There is nothing glorious about this and ISKCON women certainly don’t have to follow suit in the name of being chaste or “Vedic.”
Denigration of women has proved to foster abuse of women, wife burning (the horrors of India), abandoning female children, etc. And
subordination of women in Kali-yuga many times equates with the denigration of women as proved by the examples of abused Hindu women all over the world.
P.S. Are you the Anandini dasi in Russia that I met in India? Did you get
the Sadaputa tapes I sent you for the radio programming? How are you?
(Text COM:1786000) -----------------------------------------
4.12 Text COM:1803498 (337 lines) [W1]
From: Internet: ameyatma (ACBSP) Date: 25-Oct-98 00:58
Cc: DMW (Dharma of Men and Women) 
Cc: (International) Women’s Ministry 
Cc: Bhakti-tirtha Swami  (forwarded: 27-Oct-98 16:10)
Cc: Madhusudani Radha (dd) JPS (Mill Valley - USA)  (forwarded:
Bcc: GHQ 
For: IWC (Internat. Women’s Conference)
Reference: Text COM:1786000 by firstname.lastname@example.org
Subject: Re: Women on the GBC-- a few questions
All Glories To Srila Prabhupad.
(I don’t know why I am getting this so late. It says it was written on10/20, but I am just getting today, and msgs I have posted to DOW have not been showing up?)
At 10:04 AM 10/20/98 -0400, Mother Pranada wrote: (to Anandini dd)
> You mention that abuse is a moral issue and goes on quite a bit in India.
> Basu Ghosh Prabhu disagrees with you.
I have not had a chance to read exactly what Basu Ghosh wrote, but, I would
agree that ‘abuse’ is a lack of moral standards. How much it goes on in India, I have no idea, but, I have read about some things, and by their very gross nature many of these gross atrocities can NOT be attributable to Vedic culture - at all. Such as after the man has sex with his new wife, he beats her and sends her away because the dowry was too small. I have read things like this and my blood boils. It is NOT due to brahminical culture, it is due to the fact that there are no Brahmans at the head. Instead, by popular vote, there are Sudras for leaders. There are no Powerful Ksatriya Warrior Men who take guidance from the brahmans who will protect the weak and innocent. Instead, there are only weak minded cheating sudra politicians. India has it all, from the most offensive impersonal philosophy to the most absurd and bizarre, to filthiest cities (Prabhupada called Calcutta the ANUS of the Universe), to the seediest characters to the most splendid transcendence. Only the later is attributable to Vedic culture.
> Anti-cult organizations in the US and Europe watch closely how
>ISKCON treats our women and children. ISKCON is known around the world >for not treating it’s women and children very well. At least that’s a shared a
>opinion by many.
Who? Anti-cult organizations? Srila Prabhupad would be happy to hear his
followers quoting from them and following their ideals. This is whom we
should refer to as out authority for social standards? ? ? I agree, many women have been abused, but I strongly object to the philosophical explanation that Pranada gives below. I object because it is not based on the teachings of Srila Prabhupada or on shastra.
> According to findings by the largest anti-cult group here in the US,
>Hindu women are the MOST abused women in the entire world. More >abused than any other cultural group on this planet (even those groups
>traditionally known for subordination of women like Iranians, Chinese, etc.)
Why is a devotee quoting from such a demoniac organization? Can mother
Pranada find ONE single quote by Srila Prabhupada that would substantiate
this claim? That Hindu women are the MOST abused?
> FIndings state that the reason this is so is that the Hindu women
>are the most likely NOT TO SAY ANYTHING ABOUT THEIR ABUSIVE >SITUATION.
Findings made by WHO? By Self Realized Saintly Vaishnavas? Or made by
the anti-cult groups? Anti-cult groups are anti religious, of course they will attack India, because India is the seat of religiouisity. So, we should quote them as our authority over and above the greatest self realized saintly person, Srila Prabhupad?
>Their training, as Basu Ghosh highlights is to stay with the husband at all
>costs, be submissive, etc.
> There is nothing glorious about this and ISKCON women certainly
>don’t have to follow suit in the name of being chaste or “Vedic.”
Totally at odds with Srila Prabhupad who has said that this is Glorious for
such women. These words are agresively offensive as they are 100% opposed
to what Srila Prabhupad has taught.
Not once in her letter has she quoted from Vedic scripture or from Srila
Prabhupad. She is not lending support nor promoting what Prabhupad has
taught, nor is she supporting her own views with quotes from Shastra or
guru, but instead she supports and takes support from anit-cultural -
anit-dharma - anti-religious - anti-cult organizations. This is both very
dangerous and very offensive to the Vedas and the great self-realized souls
of our Sampradaya.
She claims that ISKCON women do not need to follow suit in the name of
> Denigration of women has proved to foster abuse of women,
The word denigration means to vilify or put them down. Yes, I fully agree
with this. No man - no brahman, no Vaishnav, nor gentleman should ever
deride a good chaste woman. Vedic culture does NOT deride women, but it
does teach that women are not to be allowed independence, but always taken good care of and protected just like children. That is not deriding
women, that is religious, moral, ethical protection of women. But, many
Westernized liberated women disagree. They will agrue that to say a women
should take to the subordinate - submissive - position is denigrating to
women. That is not supported at all by Srila Prabhupad, but it is supported by the demoniac anti-cultists and the modern feminazis.
Mothers such as Pranada can not find support for their views from the Vedic scripture or from Prabhupada’s books, so they are now quoting from the demons and anti-cult groups for support fo their mundane - anti-dharma -ideas.
>wife-burning (the horrors of India), abandoning female children, etc.
Yes, modern India, “Hinduism”, that is another thing...That is NOT the result of Vedic culture, that is the direct result of a headless society whose leaders are all sudras. It is a fact that many women are being abused. But, why? Due to the influence of Western ideas of Equal Rights, due to no proper protection.
When I told my wife what mother Pranada wrote, she asked me to write that she comes from a Hindu family, and she knows from first-hand experience. Her mother, her grandmothers, her aunts and grandaunts and so many older cousins and in-laws of her other relatives, so many Hindu women she has known who were very chaste and very submissive to their husbands, and she says there is not a sinlge incident amoung the women who were submissive of ever being abused in any way. The couples never fought, the marriages were for the most part peaceful. The women were always very well taken care of.
None of them ever worked outside the house. They were very well protected. Her grandmothers and mother had 1,000’s of $$$ worth of 22 and 24k gold jewelry, their husbands always took best care of them. And they were so submissive to their husbands. My own mother-in-law, my wife’s mother, told her daughter to not say one word if I were to take more than one wife. She was trained that a wife is never to raise her voice against her husband for ANY reason. She told us that is the standard that her mother and grandmother taught her to be so submissive. And NONE of them were Abused in ANY way. The examples that the anti-cultural organizations will draw upon are the gross exceptions and they are all modern, within the last 25 years or so. The more Western influence there has been in India the more the women want equal rights, more and more has there come social degradation and corruption. But, when the women and society (Men included) follow the Vedic system there is minimal such abuse. Srila Prabhupad has taught this as a science, and he has taught that when women are not submissive, then all social disruption will come. But, mother Pranada, taking support from anti-religiuos organizations is promoting the complete opposite of what Srila Prabhupad teaches, for she says:
> And subordination of women in Kali-yuga many times equates with the
> denigration of women as proved by the examples of abused Hindu women
> all over the world.
This is absurd and has support only by the demoniac anti-cultists and
feminazis. Where has Srila Prabhupad said this???? Where has he or Krsna, or Sri Caitanya, or any great saintly self-realized soul, or Vedic scriptures said this?? The only ones who say this are the demons and so-called liberated women who want artificial equal rights. This is poison which will totally corrupt our whole society.
Here are some quotes from Srila Prabhupad:
Morning Walk May 1, 1974, Bombay 740501mw.bom
Prabhupäda: Put problems. I’ll solve.
Yogeçvara: Here’s a problem. The women today want the same rights as men.
How can they be satisfied?
Prabhupäda: Everything will be satisfied. Just like our women, Krsna
conscious, they are working. They don’t want equal rights with men. It is
due to Krsna consciousness. They are cleansing the temple, they are cooking
very nicely. They are satisfied. They never say that “I have to go to Japan
for preaching like Prabhupäda.” They never say. This is artificial. So
Krsna consciousness means work in his constitutional position. The women,
men, when they remain in their constitutional position, there will be no
artificial (indistinct) (loud traffic noises)
Bhagavän: They say that our women are unintelligent because they submit so easily, but....But actually, our women are so qualified in so many ways, but these girls who simply work in the city can do nothing. They can’t cook, they
can’t clean, they can’t sew.
Prabhupäda: All rubbish. These modern girls, they are all rubbish.
Therefore they are simply used for sex satisfaction. Topless, bottomless...
Srila Prabhupad says that modern women who are not trained how to be good housewives, they are all rubbish, and so the men automatically treat them as rubbish. (Don’t say that ‘ameyatma das’ said this, Srila Prabhupad said it... Definitely the anti-cult groups did not say it, I don’t quote from
Mother Pranada, you are a follower of HDG A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
Prabhupada, why don’t you quote from HIM, instead of from anti-cult groups? Why not serve him by promoting these following words of Srila Prabhupad, instead of serving the anti-cultists by promoting their poison.
Television Interview July 9, 1975, Chicago 750709iv.chi
Woman reporter: But you say women are subordinate to men?
Prabhupäda: Yes, that is also natural. Because when the husband and wife
are there or the father and daughter is there, so the daughter is subordinate to the father and the wife is subordinate to the husband.
Woman reporter: What happens when women are not subordinate to men?
Prabhupäda: Then there is disruption. There is disruption, social disruption. If the woman does not become subordinate to man, then there is social disruption. Therefore, in the Western countries there are so many divorce cases because the woman does not agree to become subordinate to man. That is the cause.
Woman reporter: What advice do you have to women who do not want to be
subordinate to men?
Prabhupäda: It is not my advice, but it is the advice of the Vedic knowledge that woman should be chaste and faithful to man.
Woman reporter: What should we do in the United States? We’re trying to
make women equal with men.
Prabhupäda: I am not trying. You are already not equal with the man because in so many respects, your functions are different and man’s functions are different. Why do you say artificially they are equal?
Woman reporter: Is the social unrest in this country caused because...
Prabhupäda: Because of these things. They do not know that.
Woman reporter: And if women were subordinate to men, it would solve all of our problems?
Prabhupäda: Yes. Man wants that woman should be subordinate, faithful to
him. Then he is ready to take charge. The man’s mentality, woman’s
mentality different. So if the woman agrees to remain faithful and
subordinate to man, then the family life will be peaceful.
Woman reporter: You have different schools for men and women, is that correct?
Prabhupäda: Yes. Man is regulated to become a first-class man, and woman is regulated to become very chaste and faithful wife.… Then the life will be very successful. And marriage, compulsory. Marriage, compulsory.
Woman reporter: Everyone should marry?
Prabhupäda: Yes. Every woman, at least, should be married. Therefore,
according to Vedic conception, polygamy is allowed.
Woman reporter: Is allowed?
Prabhupäda: Yes. Because every woman must be married. But every man may not be married. Therefore man has to accept more than one wife.
Some devotees have complained that the above conversation is quoted too
much by those who want to establish this dharma. But, I argue this is for
very good reason. First, this is a most important discussion because Srila
Prabhupada was asked very direct questions and he replied very directly on
this very topic. Secondly, it created quite a stir at the time in Chicago getting air time on the news and in the papers. And for sometime afterwards other devotees or Prabhupada himself referred to this incident when the topic of the need for women to become submissive was brought up. Thus, Srila Prabhupada himself honored it as a significant conversation. And thus it should be quoted over and over again whenever this topic is raised.
Srila Prabhupada did NOT teach that in Kali Yuga if woman become subordinate to men that a majority will become derided and abused. Where has HE said this?? But, this is what the atheistic ANTI-CULTural demons say. This is a great weakness to become so illusioned to the truth that many women who are averse to surrendering to Srila Prabhupad’s instructions will quote from anti-religious demons and not promote these divine words of their spiritual master.
To preach in ISKCON you must promote and preach what Srila Prabhupad has taught, not what anit-cult demons teach. What do they know about Dharma, about religion, about what is ultimately best for human society? What is their authority? Devotees should be ashamed to quote and promote the degrading opinons of such demons over that of their own spiritual master.
Srila Prabhupad was always very clear that we must take our guidance in
life from the great self-realized souls, not from demons and rascals who do
not know the truth:
To benefit all human society, not only in this life but in the next, the great seers and sages have prescribed various methods conducive to the prosperity of the people in general.
Vedic civilization takes advantage of the perfect knowledge presented in the Vedas and presented by great sages and brähmaëas for the benefit of
human society. Vedic injunctions are known as çruti, and the additional
supplementary presentations of these principles, as given by the great sages, are known as småti. They follow the principles of Vedic instruction. Human society should take advantage of the instructions from both sruti and smrti. If one wants to advance in spiritual life, he must take these instructions and follow the principles. In Bhakti-rasämrta-sindhu, Sréla Rüpa Gosvämi says that if one poses himself as advanced in spiritual life but does not refer to the srutis and smrtis he is simply a disturbance in society. One should follow the principles laid down in çrutis and småtis not only in one’s spiritual life but in material life as well. As far as human society is concerned, it should follow the Manu-smiti as well, for these laws are given by Manu, the father of mankind.
In the Manu-småti it is stated that a woman should not be given independence, but should be given protection by her father, husband and
elderly sons. In all circumstances a woman should remain dependent upon
some guardian. Presently women are given full independence like men, but
actually we can see that such independent women are no happier than those
women who are placed under guardians. If people follow the injunctions
given by the great sages, çrutis and småtis, they can actually be happy in
both this life and the next. Unfortunately rascals are manufacturing so many ways and means to be happy. Everyone is inventing so many methods.
Consequently human society has lost the standard ways of life, both
materially and spiritually, and as a result people are bewildered, and there is no peace or happiness in the world. Although they are trying to solve the problems of human society in the United Nations, they are still baffled. Because they do not follow the liberated instructions of the Vedas, they are unhappy.
Two significant words used in this verse are asmin and amuñmin. Asmin means “in this life,” and amuñmin means “in the next life.” Unfortunately in this age, even exalted professors and learned men believe that there is no next life and that everything is finished in this life. Since they are rascals
and fools, what advice can they give? Still they are passing as learned
scholars and professors. In this verse the word amuñmin is very explicit.
It is the duty of everyone to mold his life in such a way that he will have a profitable next life. Just as a boy is educated in order to become happy later, one should be educated in this life in order to attain an eternal and prosperous life after death. It is therefore essential that people follow what is given in the çrutis and småtis to make sure that the human mission is successful.
Where is shastric and guru support for the statements mother Pranada gave??? The only support women can find for not being subordinate and
submissive wives is from the demons, those who want to destroy our dharma and religiousity. It is the demons who want to destroy submissive faith and dharma, the deprogrammers and anit-cultists. Please, wake up and see the dangerous faults in this. The great saintly self-realized souls they have taught Manu Samhita, that women are never to be allowed independence. This is not denigrating to women, it is how to properly care for them and protect them. What is needed is more emphasis on better training of the men and women. Men need to be trained how to care for women, not how to abuse them. But, we will take the instructions from Shastra how this is to be done, not from anti-cult demons.
I agree, many women have been abused, I agree there has not been a good
system for their protection. But, the knowledge of what to do is there in
Prabhupad’s books and teachings, not in the teachings of the demons.
I realize by replying to the post this will stir up some resentment toward
me, but, I cannot remain silent when Vedic culture and Srila Prabhupad’s
teachings are under attack, from within.